Essential vs Nonessential

Discussion in 'Theology' started by netchaplain, Sep 2, 2016.

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  1. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Those are your words.

    Those who believe the Gospel, obey the Gospel.

    The Gospel: Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

    Repent means to turn to God.

    If you are called to repent, ie turn to God, then by default you are called to turn away from Satan as your lord.

    If you believe the kingdom of God is at hand, then you obey the command to repent, which is to confess Jesus as Lord.

    By this we are forgiven of our sins, and transferred out of the domain of darkness, into the kingdom of His Son.

    This is what Jesus commissioned Paul to do.

    15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18

    • in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins.

    Jesus is now our Lord, and we are to obey Him, as Lord.

    Loving and forgiving people is what He commands us to do.

    3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4


    It's not optional.

    Can we ourselves who are saved through faith, disobey this command to love and forgive, instead choose to hate and harbor unforgiveness.

    14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
    1 John 3:14-15

    3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4


    I know Him, means you are claiming you are joined to Him, and are in Him where eternal life is.


    JLB
     
  2. JLB

    JLB Member

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    I disagree and so does John.

    Can we ourselves who are saved through faith, disobey this command to love and forgive, instead choose to hate and harbor unforgiveness.

    14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
    1 John 3:14-15

    3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4


    JLB
     
  3. JLB

    JLB Member

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    If you would like to discuss what the language of scripture says, then post the scripture and refer to what the passage actually says, so we can discuss it.


    I refuse to discuss what the passage doesn't say, which is all you seem to want to do.


    When someone inherits eternal life, at His coming and the resurrection, whereby they are counted worthy to attain that age and come forth in the resurrection of life [John 5:29] then they will be immortal and never die anymore.

    35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
    Luke 20:35-36


    Can you still die, Freegrace?


    JLB
     
  4. JLB

    JLB Member

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    No scripture here, just opinion.


    If you would like to discuss what the language of scripture says, then post the scripture and refer to what the passage actually says, so we can discuss it.


    I refuse to discuss what the passage doesn't say, which is all you seem to want to do.
     
  5. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Ok, I can agree with that.

    Please refer to some of them by posting what the scripture says, and refer to the actual words that Jesus said.
     
  6. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Did John die?


    JLB
     
  7. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    There IS a verse that tells us how one gets "into Christ".
    Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

    There it is, in red and white. When you believed, you also were included in Christ.
     
  8. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    It seems my posts aren't being read. What did Jesus said about those He gives eternal life in Johnb 10:28? This has been asked before.

    I'm still waiting for 2 of my questions to be answered.
     
  9. Gregg T

    Gregg T Member

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    John died a corporeal death. Do you distinguish between physical and spiritual death?

    -

    Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"
    • not 3 conditions, but 3 factual characteristics
      • those of His fold hear (from the heart / mind) His voice
      • they (their heart / mind) are known by the Lord
      • those of His fold follow (in His way, as a disciple) the Lord
    Joh 10:28 And I give eternal life to them, and they shall not perish to the age, never! And not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
    • not physical life, but a life characterized as perpetual, everlasting
    • they shall not be destroyed / die spiritually / perish
    • those of His fold are in His hand
    What does it mean to you "they shall not perish"?
     
  10. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Please answer my 2 questions.

    When does one possess eternal life, according to Jesus in John 5:24?
    What did Jesus say about those He gives eternal life in John 10:28?
     
  11. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Please answer my 2 questions. Enough of this distraction.
     
  12. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Just answer my 2 questions, then I'll be happy to answer yours. I'm holding you to your own stated standard regarding other posters.

    To me, you're an other poster.
     
  13. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Yes.

    I suspect the reasons vary and cannot know for sure about others. I suspect lots of reasons are there.

    I personally only get frustrated (which can lead to being mean-spirited if not kept in check) when members don't follow the Theological debate rules here. Like actually answering relevant yet challenging questions concerning their contrary understanding of Scriptures.

    I don't see any point when addressing the same individual, saying the same things about the same verses over and over. Or asking the same question over and over again for that matter (which is also contrary to good debate rules). I limit my repeated requests for an answer to a challange question I have for another member to one or two repeats at most.

    Debate rules (both here and in formal debates and in 1 Peter 3:15) literally require that opposing relevant questions be answered (reasonably). Even if the answer is "I don't know". But the question; 'How can eternal life not be eternal???' has yielded zero reasonable answers. For obvious reasons, I suppose.

    It's important in any debate that your position have reasoned answers ("be prepared" with your reasons, Peter calls it) to any relevant challange questions people might ask you. And it's very useful in evidencing the truth (or at least most reasonable position) to hold. That is, when people will actually and reasonably answer them. If their answer isn't reasonable (preferably Biblically based) then their position is obviously weakened and thus much more likely to be false.

    I've listened to so many of William Lane Craig's debates now that I skip his introduction (because I pretty much know his arguments and the atheists) and fast forward to where he and his opponent get to asking questions of each other. To me, that's the red-meat of the entire debate.

    Take this simple example:

    I think that factions/divisions in the church over OSAS is necessary in order to show which side holds to the truth (OSAS vs antiOSAS). In otherwords, there can be some good that comes out of all this back-forth, in my opinion. Which is why I posted 1 Cor 11:19 (which I still think is relevant here even though I am aware you disagree but not so much why).

    Here's the truth statement Paul made to the bickering and factious 1st Century church in Corinth. Corinth was a place and a church where many cultures and ideas mingled (not just Jewish vs Roman but the whole Mediterranean world). Good Christians had to have reasonable answers to people's challenging questions (both believers and non-believers). In short, I cannot think of a more applicable Epistle than this one to your point about factions/divisions over OSAS (eternal security).

    1 Corinthians 11:19 For indeed it is necessary that there be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may become evident among you.

    They were disagreeing about all sorts of things. Hair, jewelry, headship, sex, snobbery, marraige, divorce, the Lord's supper, etc. Yes this snipped verse (a cherry worth picking, IMO) happens to come in the section about their factions over the Lord's Supper. But, to me, it has application to factions over OSAS v OSNAS (or never saved until much later at post-resurrection or for that matter even in the new Heaven) or any other faction/division in the church really (divorce, headship, etc.)

    Which is why I asked you why you thought it doesn't have any application (cannot be applicable).

    Basically, the whole reason I participate here is to see which side of various issues/controversy has the better (more Biblically based) argument. I believe that's what Paul meant in his statement 1 Cor 11:19 instruction.

    But yes, mean-spirited posts get in the way and have zero apologetic content to them and are unbiblical as your verses point out.

    But disagreeing posts don't have to be mean-spirited and many are not (yet there's disagreement). Like yours and mine over 1 Cor 11:19 being applicable to these OSAS threads.

    OSAS v OSNAS shamefully broke a past church of mine apart decades ago (as a young Christian before I'd studied soteriology much one way or the other). I didn't know then which side was right. Now I do (without going into detail) via listening to the arguments for/against OSAS.

    My reply to your cooment in post #537 was in general agreement with your points made in that post (not disagreeing). I was merely adding a point which Paul had made to a bunch of factious 1st Century Christians. That is, when people divide over an issue, take the time to see who among you has the better Biblical evidence.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017 at 8:31 AM
  14. chessman

    chessman Member

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    You didn't answer my question. If you don't answer, your case is left weak.

    He met his 1st appointment (to die) yes.

    Did John perish?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017 at 9:09 AM
  15. gr8grace3

    gr8grace3 Member

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    How does loss of salvation love the brethren?

    Loss of salvation does not love the brethren.

    Loss of salvation is the epitome of murdering the brethren and not forgiving the brethren.

    Thank God that the brethren can never perish and are forgiven.

    John 10:28.
     
  16. JLB

    JLB Member

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    We are actually taught from the scriptures, just the opposite.

    Those who turn people back who have wandered from the truth, will save a soul from death.

    This is an act of love, just as evangelism is, and accomplishes the same thing.

    • he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

    Those who wander from the truth, just as a sheep who becomes lost, is likened to a sinner in need of repentance.

    19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

    Love covers a multitude of sins.


    Hopefully this clears up your confusion.



    JLB
     
  17. JLB

    JLB Member

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    You are teaching us that Christians can harbor hatred and unforgiveness, in violent disagreement with the scripture, and you claim my case is weak? :lol2

    He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



    14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
    1 John 3:14-15

    3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4



    JLB
     
  18. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Please post scripture and refer to the language of the scripture.
     
  19. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Yes, John physical body perished and he will inherit eternal life at the resurrection, as he will come forth in the resurrection of life, receiving immortality, in which he will not die anymore.

    35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
    Luke 20:35-36

    • nor can they die anymore



    Any discussion about eternal life, should include a discussion of being "in Christ", and what the scriptures teach about that, as well as the resurrection, and the Day of judgement, so all can examine what is being taught by the scriptures about this subject, not just a "part" of a verse, with no context.


    JLB
     
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Member

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    Does this apply to the level of contempt displayed between OSAS and OSNAS 'brothers' on thread after thread here?
     
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