Eternal Hell

[godsquadgeek]

this is a thread on the eternality of Hell.

this article proves that the current pope has disavowed eternal hell:

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/pope-francis-there-no-hell

Jude 7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

what are your thoughts?

 

[UberMink]

My thoughts? This latest pope has disavowed any semblance of alignment of his teachings with that of holy Christ.
As to Hell it is the grave, Sheol, as spoken of in the old testament. David in his Psalms, songs, and that of chapter 139 speaks of God's eternal presence within all creation. David observes, should he make his bed in Sheol there too is God. That there is no place David can go where he will escape the presence of the Father.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

this is a thread on the eternality of Hell.

this article proves that the current pope has disavowed eternal hell:

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/pope-francis-there-no-hell

Jude 7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

what are your thoughts?

Hmmm... my thoughts on the pope?? I've got a thought for you. Is he out of his mind? Here's another thought, how did he even get elected pope in the first place? Hell is a very real and horrible place to be for the wicked who choose to reject Jesus. I don't know what this guy was taught in Sunday school class, but whoever taught him should be fired as soon as possible if it didn't happen already.

 

[Truthfrees]

i thought i heard that the pope didn't say that - that an atheist reporter falsely accused the pope of saying this

which story is true?

 

[Michael74]

Scalfari neither uses a recording device, nor does he take notes. Rather, he reconstructs his conversations with the pope from memory...This is not the first time Scalfari — an avowed atheist — has published a controversial statement attributed to Pope Francis, only for the Vatican to walk it back.

The atheist who interviewed the pope doesn't seem to be the most reliable reporter. I think I'll wait for an actual video interview. Something that is reliable.

 

[UberMink]

Vatican says interview in which Pope doubts Hell not a ‘faithful transcript’
ROME - In his latest wide-ranging conversation with legendary 93-year-old Italian journalist Eugenio Scalfari, founder of the left-wing daily La Repubblica and a self-professed non-believer, Pope Francis is quoted describing creation in terms of energy, expressing pride at being called a “revolutionary,” and casting doubt on the existence of Hell.
Vatican spokesman Greg Burke on Thursday issued a now-customary distancing statement, describing the conversation as a “private meeting, without releasing any interview,” and Scalfari’s front-page article on Thursday quoting Francis at length as “the fruit of his own reconstruction,” in which the pope’s words “are not cited textually,” and warning that it “should not be considered as a faithful transcript of the Holy Father’s words.”

 

[godsquadgeek]

The atheist who interviewed the pope doesn't seem to be the most reliable reporter. I think I'll wait for an actual video interview. Something that is reliable.

definitely a biased reporter, if he was athiest

 

[atpollard]

So let’s start from a “given” that there is a Hell and it is Eternal.

Some more serious questions than what did someone say that the Pope might have said:

• Are the people who are sent to hell Tormented forever or are they completely destroyed like burning garbage?
• Does it matter which fate awaits them?
• Can you support your opinion with scripture?

Anyone want to try a serious, polite discussion on a controversial topic?

 

[Michael74]

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11 KJV

...to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:45b-46 NKJV

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments... Matthew 16:23a KJV

 

[atpollard]

Mark 9:42-48 NASB

42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.​

I just like starting with a little surrounding context.
So does anyone think there is a bit of exaggeration for dramatic effect going on here, or is God trying to say that the warning is THAT serious. They are talking about chopping off your hand or gouging out your eye!

Moving back on topic, v.43 seems to affirm that Hell is a real place and the fire there never goes out.
V.44,46,48 “where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED“ is a quote from Isa 66:24.

Isaiah 66:22-24 NASB

22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth​

Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the LORD,​

“So your offspring and your name will endure.​

23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon​

And from sabbath to sabbath,​

All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD.​

24 “Then they will go forth and look​

On the corpses of the men​

Who have transgressed against Me.​

For their worm will not die​

And their fire will not be quenched;​

And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”​

Mark 9 and Isaiah 66 speak clearly about corpses and worms and unquenchable fire, but could apply equally to either torment or destruction based on what other verses and outside view you brought into reading them. They seem inconclusive with Mark maybe leaning just a bit towards Torment and Isaiah leaning towards destruction.

 

[Michael74]

So does anyone think there is a bit of exaggeration for dramatic effect going on here, or is God trying to say that the warning is THAT serious.

Would the Father have sent His Son to die on a cross for us if it were not that serious?

It is that serious.

 

[atpollard]

Luke 16:19-31 NASB

19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”​

Again, I like to look at things in context.
I love the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. There is nothing else like it in scripture. On the one hand, there are a lot of people who claim that it is a parable and should not be taken as representing an absolute truth, but rather just a make-believe story to teach a lesson. There isn’t a literal gardener chopping off branches and grafting on wild branches ... that was just a story.

I am unconvinced by that argument. None of the other parables used proper names. They were always ‘a man’ or ‘a farmer’ or ‘a laborer’. Here we have a specific individual by name “Lazarus” meeting with Abraham and speaking with a “Rich Man” that knew Lazarus when he was alive and has brothers who are still alive. Now I admit that the story of Lazarus does communicate spiritual truths, but so does the story of the woman at the well.

One other personal thought, this story is told about a time before Jesus death and resurrection. Some of the details may represent “Abraham’s Bosom” and “Sheol” from the Old Testement rather than the ultimate Heaven and Hell of the New Testement. Still, it is an amazing story.

The story clearly teaches that the rich man was in torment and in flames. I see no way to know if this is an eternal state or awaiting the final judgement from just the context of this story. I tend to personally place this as very strong evidence for Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell. If Hell was simply eternal destruction, why would Jesus tell a story based on a spiritual lie?

 

[atpollard]

Would the Father have sent His Son to die on a cross for us if it were not that serious?

It is that serious.

That sounds pious, but do you genuinely believe that the Bible is advocating self-mutiliation to avoid damnation?
If there is NO exaggeration, then it means exactly what it says.
Is that your belief?

• "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off ...
• “If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off ...
• "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out ...

 

[godsquadgeek]

Mark 9:42-48 NASB

42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.​

I just like starting with a little surrounding context.
So does anyone think there is a bit of exaggeration for dramatic effect going on here, or is God trying to say that the warning is THAT serious. They are talking about chopping off your hand or gouging out your eye!

Moving back on topic, v.43 seems to affirm that Hell is a real place and the fire there never goes out.
V.44,46,48 “where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED“ is a quote from Isa 66:24.

Isaiah 66:22-24 NASB

22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth​

Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the LORD,​

“So your offspring and your name will endure.​

23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon​

And from sabbath to sabbath,​

All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD.​

24 “Then they will go forth and look​

On the corpses of the men​

Who have transgressed against Me.​

For their worm will not die​

And their fire will not be quenched;​

And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”​

Mark 9 and Isaiah 66 speak clearly about corpses and worms and unquenchable fire, but could apply equally to either torment or destruction based on what other verses and outside view you brought into reading them. They seem inconclusive with Mark maybe leaning just a bit towards Torment and Isaiah leaning towards destruction.

they are all hell yes? Torment, and the lake of fire are both hell. I am assuming destruction you mean the grave, but the grave does not have unquenchable fire, so that would not apply. here is a chart that I use, a larkin chart:

 

[godsquadgeek]

That sounds pious, but do you genuinely believe that the Bible is advocating self-mutiliation to avoid damnation?
If there is NO exaggeration, then it means exactly what it says.
Is that your belief?

• "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off ...
• “If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off ...
• "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out ...

yes, because it is a logical concept. What is more valuable your hand or your soul. The Bible talks about this many places. (it is not saying that you should cut off your hand every time you sin, but if for example by cutting off your hand you could stop sin and thus damnation, what would you choose?)

 

[Free]

That sounds pious, but do you genuinely believe that the Bible is advocating self-mutiliation to avoid damnation?
If there is NO exaggeration, then it means exactly what it says.
Is that your belief?

• "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off ...
• “If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off ...
• "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out ...

Those versess mean exactly what they say, however, they are not advocating self-mutilation. It might take a bit of thinking.

 

[atpollard]

Those versess mean exactly what they say, however, they are not advocating self-mutilation. It might take a bit of thinking.

That’s not much exegesis for the ‘Apologetics’ section of the forum, but ...
OK, thanks.
I guess if you say so.

 

[Free]

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11 KJV

...to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:45b-46 NKJV

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments... Matthew 16:23a KJV

Not Matthew 16:23, Luke 16:23. The problem here is with the KJV. This isn't hell, it's Hades, the Greek for Sheol, the grave. This is a constant issue that arises in discussions on hell--the equivocating of Hades and Gehenna. They most certainly are not one and the same, with Gehenna most likely referring to the lake of fire, or Hell.

 

[Free]

That’s not much exegesis for the ‘Apologetics’ section of the forum, but ...
OK, thanks.
I guess if you say so.

Have you thought about it? Do you understand what I am saying about what Jesus is saying--that he's being literal but that doesn't mean self-mutilation?

 

[blessedsmithereens]

So let’s start from a “given” that there is a Hell and it is Eternal.

Some more serious questions than what did someone say that the Pope might have said:

• Are the people who are sent to hell Tormented forever or are they completely destroyed like burning garbage?
• Does it matter which fate awaits them?
• Can you support your opinion with scripture?

Anyone want to try a serious, polite discussion on a controversial topic?

I think the fiery pit should be recalled as that which God created as the destiny that awaited the fallen angels and their leader Satan at the end of days. Why they all weren't sent there after being cast out of Heaven so as to avoid all the evil and temptations they'd wrought on earth having fallen here God only knows.

Since we're not of the caliber of Satan and his angels, I'm going with Sheol as it was described in the foundation documents preceding our faith; Judaism.
The fire and brimstone destiny for human souls was added later and has a history that can be found to be directly attributable to man, not Christ, who was God in the first place.
I'd post that information but to be quite frank the day before Easter I'm not in the mood to be verbally textually assailed by the resident bullies who would rather spit disagreement than learn they don't know it all.