Growth Faith Without Works Is Dead

[Jim Parker]

Hello again dirtfarmer, You have said in the end of your statement: God looks on mans hearts and knows what is in it. He doesn't need an outward manifestation to prove man has faith. It is for man that the outward works of the Spirit is manifest.

As in: “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."? (Mat 5:16)

Or how about:
Mat 25:34-36
“Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ‘for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; ‘I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
Mat 25:41-43
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: ‘for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; ‘I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’"
Mat 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

Just to be clear ('cause I'm not seeing it here) when we co-operate, it required a conscious decision on our part and the exertion of effort to co-operate.
It's not automatic.
We are free to refuse to obey.

Jus' sayin'

iakov the fool

Yes sir.

 

[JLB]

Faith without works is dead, i.e., Faith without Jesus and the Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, i.e., The Finished Work, is dead - Romans 8:2. Believing is the action part of our Faith (John 20:27 NIV)

Obeying is the action part of faith.

When God speaks to us to do something, we then have faith.

When we do [obey] what God speaks to us to do, then we have done it "by faith", and have obtained righteousness according to faith.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Noah built the Ark, by faith, and saved his household.

Noah did what was right in God's eyes, having obeyed, and accomplished the divine result.


By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. Hebrews 11:30

The children of Israel, had to do what God spoke to them to do, which was march around Jericho for 7 days and blow the trumpets in the manner prescribed by God, in order to obtain the victory, by faith.

2 And the Lord said to Joshua: “See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor. 3 You shall march around the city, all you men of war; you shall go all around the city once. This you shall do six days. 4 And seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of rams’ horns before the ark. But the seventh day you shall march around the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets. 5 It shall come to pass, when they make a long blast with the ram’s horn, and when you hear the sound of the trumpet, that all the people shall shout with a great shout; then the wall of the city will fall down flat. And the people shall go up every man straight before him.” Joshua 6:2-5


The children of Israel could have believed with all their heart that the walls would come down, but until they "obeyed" the specific instructions the Lord spoke to them, then walls would remain standing.

The principle of faith requires obedience for faith to function, and produce the divine result intended.

You can have all the "proper faith" in the world, and unless you obey what the word the Lord speaks to you, your faith is dead.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Obeying is the action part of faith.

That puts it quite succinctly.
Well done.

 

[iLOVE]

Obeying is the action part of faith.

When God speaks to us to do something, we then have faith.

When we do [obey] what God speaks to us to do, then we have done it "by faith", and have obtained righteousness according to faith.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Noah built the Ark, by faith, and saved his household.

Noah did what was right in God's eyes, having obeyed, and accomplished the divine result.


By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. Hebrews 11:30

The children of Israel, had to do what God spoke to them to do, which was march around Jericho for 7 days and blow the trumpets in the manner prescribed by God, in order to obtain the victory, by faith.

2 And the Lord said to Joshua: “See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor. 3 You shall march around the city, all you men of war; you shall go all around the city once. This you shall do six days. 4 And seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of rams’ horns before the ark. But the seventh day you shall march around the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets. 5 It shall come to pass, when they make a long blast with the ram’s horn, and when you hear the sound of the trumpet, that all the people shall shout with a great shout; then the wall of the city will fall down flat. And the people shall go up every man straight before him.” Joshua 6:2-5


The children of Israel could have believed with all their heart that the walls would come down, but until they "obeyed" the specific instructions the Lord spoke to them, then walls would remain standing.

The principle of faith requires obedience for faith to function, and produce the divine result intended.

You can have all the "proper faith" in the world, and unless you obey what the word the Lord speaks to you, your faith is dead.



JLB

It is always grace through faith and never grace through obeying.

 

[iLOVE]

hello iLOVE, dirtfarmer here

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that it is faith first and then works because of that faith. It seems as if some are trying to have the "infant Christian" preforming "adult Christian" things before they have grown in the Lord. When we look at infants we know that they are humans, but are incapable bench pressing 100 pound weight. There are even some adults that are incapable of bench pressing 100 lbs.

God's prescribe order of victory over the world, the flesh, and the Devil, is Faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e, The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus. Romans 8:2 - The Law of the Spirit of Life In Christ Jesus

Any other way is faith in yourself (self deceiving yourself), i.e., spiritual adultrey. You are producing another way which is another god.

 

[Nathan]

God's prescribe order of victory over the world, the flesh, and the Devil, is Faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e, The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus. Romans 8:2 - The Law of the Spirit of Life In Christ Jesus

Any other way is faith in yourself.

Explain how to tell the difference between faith in God and faith in yourself, if you would.

I think sometimes it's hard for people to see the difference.

 

[iLOVE]

Explain how to tell the difference between faith in God and faith in yourself, if you would.

I think sometimes it's hard for people to see the difference.

The Way Of The Spirit
Focus: The Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Object Of Faith: The Cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-14)
Power Source: The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-2, 11)
Results: Victory (Romans 6:14)

Man's Way
Focus: Works.
Object Of Faith: Performance.
Power Source: Self.
Results: Defeat!

The only way to God is through Jesus Christ (John 14:6)...the only way to Jesus Christ is by the Means of the Cross (Luke 14:27). The only way to the Cross is a denial of self (Luke 9:23). If any person tries to come any other way, Jesus says, "they are a thief and a robber" (John 10:1).

1. Jesus Christ is the source of all blessings.
2. The Cross is the means by which all blessings are given.
3. The object of our faith must be Christ and the Cross.
4. That being done, the Holy Spirit will greatly help us.

The Law Of The Spirit Of Life In Christ Jesus ( Romans 8:2) gives the Believer victory over the world, the flesh, and the devil.

The Holy Spirit, He Works strictly within the parameters of the "Finished Work" i.e., "the Cross of Christ", which demands that our Faith be exclusively in the Cross of Christ. The reason is simple, that's were the price was paid, and the victory was forever won (Romans 6:1-14; 1 Cor. 2:2; Gal. 5; Gal. 6:14; Eph. 2:13-18; Col. 2:14-15).

The Holy Spirit doesn't require much of us, but He does require one thing, and without reservation. Our Faith must be exclusively be in Christ and the Cross, understanding that this is God's Prescribed Order of Victory. When we stay "victory" we are speaking Victory in every capacity, be it spiritual, financial, domestically, physical, etc. God's Prescribed Order of Victory is "the Cross of Christ."

Victory over the world: Galatians 6:14 ; 1 John 5:4
Victory over the flesh: Galatians 5:24
Victory over the devil: Hebrews 2:14 ; Colossians 2:15

 

[JLB]

It is always grace through faith and never grace through obeying.

Yes!

It's always grace through faith.

What "through faith" or "by faith" means is where I believe you and I may differ.

The working or obedience is how the law of faith operates.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

Faith without this principle or element of obedience is dead, and can not save, will not function; will not produce the intended divine result.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6

Paul calls it the "obedience of faith".

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

Example:

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

She had to move through the crowd and go and touch His garment, not just stay on the sideline and believe only, but the action of her faith, is what led to the power of Jesus Christ flowing out from Him to the woman in need.


The divine result: Healing




JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is always grace through faith and never grace through obeying.

Please consider the following:

Jhn 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Rom 6:16
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Heb 5:8-9
Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

1Jo 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

God's grace is extended to all of mankind in that HE sent His Son to be put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification (Rom 4:25) and He has given eternal life to all who would believe. (John 3:16)

Everyone has sinned and earned death. God, by His GRACE, forgives the sin of everyone who confesses and repents. (1Jo 1:9) God "opens the gates of the kingdom" to anyone who will believe. He doesn't have to do it. He does it because He is gracious and He does it by extending His grace to us.

But, believing is not just an intellectual event. Whoever really believes acts like he believes and we who believe are expected, by God, to act like we believe and obey Jesus commands. That's why Jesus asked, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?" (Luke 6:46)

Jesus also said: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven" (Mat 5:16) His command there was "Do good works."

Jesus also commanded us to "love one another" (Jhn 13:34; 15:12, 17) and even to love our enemies. (Mat 5:44; Luk 6:27; Luk 6:35)

And, according to Jesus, "doing" is very important for salvation.
John 5:28-29 … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

So, if someone is telling you that all you have to do is agree with what scripture says but you don't need to do any of what scripture tells you to do, ignore that person; they are leading you down the path of "Cheap Grace" that leads to hell.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[iLOVE]

Righteous is only awarded by God through faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus (Romans 4:5). Anything and everything else is (sin) Spiritual Adultery, Hagar, and For what the law couldn't do. The scripture says..."for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified (Galatians 2:16)."

Romans 3:23 - Justification is not what we do, and not what I am, and not what I worked for. It is what Jesus did and my faith in it that gives me the standing with God that I need to carry on my Christian experience. Sometime I do it well, and sometimes I do it not so well, but His justifying Grace will not fail unless my faith fails. It is just if I have never sinned and just if I have always obeyed (Romans 8:1; Romans 8:2).

 

[iLOVE]

Yes!

It's always grace through faith.

What "through faith" or "by faith" means is where I believe you and I may differ.

The working or obedience is how the law of faith operates.



Faith without this principle or element of obedience is dead, and can not save, will not function; will not produce the intended divine result.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6

Paul calls it the "obedience of faith".

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

Example:

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

She had to move through the crowd and go and touch His garment, not just stay on the sideline and believe only, but the action of her faith, is what led to the power of Jesus Christ flowing out from Him to the woman in need.


The divine result: Healing




JLB

The Apostle Paul makes it very clear in Romans 8:10 that the physical body, mind / intellect, and the heart (which is evil - Jeremiah 17:9) has been rendered helpless because of the original sin; consequently, the Believer trying to overcome by willpower presents a fruitless task. Only the Holy Spirit can mortify the deeds of the flesh and make us what we ought to be (Romans 8:13). This means we cannot do it ourselves. Once again, He performs all that He does within the confines of the Finished Work of Christ (Romans 8:2).

If a Christian will and their efforts to live for God is in anything except Christ and the Cross, i.e., Finished Work, The Blood of Jesus (Romans 8:2), Satan can override your will and force you to do things you don't want to do and trying not to do (Ephesians 6:12). Jesus said deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow me (Luke 9:23).

Remember our bodies are dead and useless to God. The heart is prone to wander away from God's love and eat from "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil." The reason why the body is dead is because of the effects of the fall has made us totally incapable of yielding spiritual obedience on a regular basis (Jeremiah 13:23). So there must be a source outside of myself that helps me to enter into sanctification which is the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13).

 

[iLOVE]

The Believer must repent not just for the bad they are doing, but also for the good they are doing. Why? Because the Believer can depend on the good to get them through (Jer. 6:13-15). Good things will always follow right living. However, that is not God's way. His way is Faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work (Rev. 3:17-22).

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Righteous is only awarded by God through faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus (Romans 4:5). Anything and everything else is (sin) Spiritual Adultery, Hagar, and For what the law couldn't do. The scripture says..."for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified (Galatians 2:16)."

Nobody said that anyone would be justified by "works of the Law."
It is a common mistake to conflate "works of the law" with "good works."
The law was meant to make us aware of sin (Rom 7:7) and to lead us to Christ. (Gal 3:24)
The works of the law were given so that man would learn that it was impossible for him to do them all, all the time.
The works of the law had the purpose of making it very clear to us that we needed a savior because we couldn't ever be good enough at keeping the law to earn a place in the kingdom of God.

But we were created to do good works.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
The phrase, "that we should walk in them" means that doing good works is supposed to be our normal, habitual, manner of living.
God created us specifically to do good works; that's the job He gave us.
And the good works he gave us to do are to Love God, (Mat 22:37; Mar 12:30; Luk 10:27) love our neighbor,(Mat 22:39) and even love our enemies. (Mat 5:44)

Remember our bodies are dead and useless to God.

God doesn't need any bodies dead or not. He can create all the bodies He wants out of nothing.

So there must be a source outside of myself that helps me to enter into sanctification which is the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13).

Absolutely.
And we are to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit.

And Jesus still said:
John 5:28-29 … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

And Paul said:
Ro 2:6-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil,
of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good,
to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[JLB]

Remember our bodies are dead and useless to God.

My body is not dead, nor is it useless to God.

I use my body everyday to serve the Lord, and provide for my household, and bless people.

Only the Holy Spirit can mortify the deeds of the flesh and make us what we ought to be (Romans 8:13).

This is not what Romans 8:13 says.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:13

God has given us all things that pertain to godliness, because He has given us His Spirit to empower us to reign in dominion over the sinful desires of the flesh.

It's up to us, by the power of the Spirit, to put to death the deeds of the flesh, so that we will live; Eternal Life.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If a Christian will and their efforts to live for God is in anything except Christ and the Cross, i.e., Finished Work, The Blood of Jesus (Romans 8:2), Satan can override your will and force you to do things you don't want to do and trying not to do (Ephesians 6:12). Jesus said deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow me (Luke 9:23).

When Jesus said, "Deny yourself", He was talking about the goals and desires which are common to man and which are distorted by the "body of death".

Taking up my cross and following Jesus are both acts of my will and my effort.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Winnie]

Let's define the word faith. A real in depth look at it.
Then argue from there.

To me, faith=obedience. So obedience is part if the definition of faith. So obedience produces works. A natural outcome.

 

[JLB]

Let's define the word faith. A real in depth look at it.
Then argue from there.

To me, faith=obedience. So obedience is part if the definition of faith. So obedience produces works. A natural outcome.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6

Faith expresses itself in the working acts of love.

Example:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Matthew 25:31-36

The acts of faith working through love:

• I was hungry and you gave Me food
• I was thirsty and you gave Me drink
  
• I was a stranger and you took Me in
  
• I was naked and you clothed Me
  
• I was sick and you visited Me
  
• I was in prison and you came to Me.

Other of His servants, had no expression of faith that worked through acts of love:

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Matthew 25:41-43

• for I was hungry and you gave Me no food
• I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink
  
• I was a stranger and you did not take Me in
  
• naked and you did not clothe Me
  
• sick and in prison and you did not visit Me

The conclusion of the matter:

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matthew 25:46



JLB

 

[Nathan]

Let's define the word faith. A real in depth look at it.
Then argue from there.

To me, faith=obedience. So obedience is part if the definition of faith. So obedience produces works. A natural outcome.

We have the definition of faith already.

Hebrews 11:1 (ESV) 1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:1 (HCSB) 1 Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Let's define the word faith. A real in depth look at it.
Then argue from there.
To me, faith=obedience. So obedience is part if the definition of faith. So obedience produces works. A natural outcome.

We all do "works" all the time.
I think the issue is: what kind of works?

According to Jesus, there are works (deeds) that lead to life and works that lead to death.

John 5:28b-29 ... the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Obedience, as I see it, is simply doing what Jesus told us to do which basically means; love God, love one another; love your neighbor, and even love your enemies. (See 1Cor 13:4-8a for Paul's definition of love.)

And we obey because we really believe that He knows what He's talking about.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)




DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.