Faith without works........is Faith.

[childeye]

Where is your scriptural citing?!

Exodus 35:23
And every man, with whom was found blue,

 

[smaller]

Exodus 35:23
And every man, with whom was found blue,

I love it when we dig out the Gems of Living Color!

Isaiah 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

 

[dadof10]

Dadof10, I like some of what you say here concerning weakness. I don't like when you say "my selfish desire". When you do this, you are identifying the term self as a desire in opposition to Christ, and I would not use self in describing any desire that does that. Why? Because Christ is the same Word at the center of myself and yourself from creation. John 1:3. Thinking that it's my self that desires to sin, does not separate me from my flesh and the devil who deceives me into thinking that my flesh is my self. Therefore I like weakness rather than free will, as per the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

You have said that we have two conflicting desires within us. If I (self) desire a woman other than my wife, that is a selfish desire. If one of those desires is telling me to commit adultery and the other one is not, who chooses which desire I follow? This has been asked more than once and not answered. You can not say that "our desire chooses" or "our image Of God creates inevitably", because there are two of them and they are in conflict. This is the very heart of our discussion, so I am not going to continue until I get an answer. Who chooses?

 

[childeye]

You have said that we have two conflicting desires within us. If I (self) desire a woman other than my wife, that is a selfish desire. If one of those desires is telling me to commit adultery and the other one is not, who chooses which desire I follow? This has been asked more than once and not answered. You can not say that "our desire chooses" or "our image Of God creates inevitably", because there are two of them and they are in conflict. This is the very heart of our discussion, so I am not going to continue until I get an answer. Who chooses?

Yes I have already answered that we choose according to which desire we are led by at the moment of choice or conflict. Hence if a person is spiritually minded, (that means that we recognizes the Truth of the matter), at the moment of temptation, they would serve the Spirit and therefore choose the godly desire. If one is carnally led, (that means they do not recognize the Truth of the matter) they will obey the flesh desire. Romans 8:5.

That is why Jesus says this:
John 8:44 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
And this: John 8:32. 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[childeye]

Dad of10, John also said this as pertains to your question:
1 John 3:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[dadof10]

Yes I have already answered that we choose according to which desire we are led by at the moment of choice or conflict. Hence if a person is spiritually minded, (that means that we recognizes the Truth of the matter), at the moment of temptation, they would serve the Spirit and therefore choose the godly desire. If one is carnally led, (that means they do not recognize the Truth of the matter) they will obey the flesh desire. Romans 8:5.

That is why Jesus says this:
John 8:44 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
And this: John 8:32. 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Good. Is it possible for a "spiritually minded" person to choose the "flesh desire"? Is it possible for the "carnally led" person to choose the "godly desire"?

 

[dadof10]

Dad of10, John also said this as pertains to your question:
1 John 3:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You have admitted that you, personally commit sin. Are you "of the devil"? And since you and I sin, I suppose neither one of us is "born of God'? You are taking the strict legalistic view of these verses and missing context. John's point is that we can judge our spiritual progress by our actions. He goes on :"By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother." (1Jn. 3:10 RSV) He is not sitting back in judgment of others, nor is he making the broad sweeping statement that people who are "born of God" don't commit actual sin, otherwise both you and I are hosed...

 

[smaller]

He is not sitting back in judgment of others, nor is he making the broad sweeping statement that people who are "born of God" don't commit actual sin, otherwise both you and I are hosed...

There is no avoiding the "death" that believers enter into, because of sin. Nor do we avoid that conclusion, thinking if we don't sin, then we are not hosed.

The state of conveyance is this:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

and again:

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Acting good does not avoid the conclusions of having sin. We act good in spite of having sin. IF we are not careful in these measures, the trap of hypocrisy is always waiting for all of us. It is from our factual condition that we are honest before God, and ask for His Mercy, which He abundantly provides. It is only when we act good and think, because of that, that we have something coming and due from God because of same, that we fall into hypocrisy, thinking we are not "like" other men are. That is the deepest pit to fall in, of all, because it is the ground of a liar.

Luke 18
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

That man was justified by Gods Mercy, obviously not because he didn't sin or was not a sinner. The Spirit granted that man, His fruit, called HONESTY.

 

[dadof10]

There is no avoiding the "death" that believers enter into, because of sin. Nor do we avoid that conclusion, thinking if we don't sin, then we are not hosed.

The state of conveyance is this:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

and again:

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Acting good does not avoid the conclusions of having sin. We act good in spite of having sin. IF we are not careful in these measures, the trap of hypocrisy is always waiting for all of us. It is from our factual condition that we are honest before God, and ask for His Mercy, which He abundantly provides. It is only when we act good and think, because of that, that we have something coming and due from God because of same, that we fall into hypocrisy, thinking we are not "like" other men are. That is the deepest pit to fall in, of all, because it is the ground of a liar.

Luke 18
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

That man was justified by Gods Mercy, obviously not because he didn't sin or was not a sinner. The Spirit granted that man, His fruit, called HONESTY.

The point is, sin is present even in those "born of God". The verses don't mean that anyone who commits sin is going to burn in Hell.

 

[smaller]

The point is, sin is present even in those "born of God". The verses don't mean that anyone who commits sin is going to burn in Hell.

And in that sight there is no truth. 1 John 3:8 shows us that sin is of the devil, and we know where the devil ends up, don't we?

This means that eternal damnation is to be laid upon our own precious hides, because of the influences of that other party, who will get his due.

When Jesus said that man will live by Every Word of God, He Most certainly meant the bad Words as well. Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4

I remind the tempter, quite often, of his fate.

 

[childeye]

Good. Is it possible for a "spiritually minded" person to choose the "flesh desire"? Is it possible for the "carnally led" person to choose the "godly desire"?

I would say no, reminding you that seeing or not seeing the Truth of the matter at the time of the choice is what determines the desire.

 

[dadof10]

And in that sight there is no truth. 1 John 3:8 shows us that sin is of the devil, and we know where the devil ends up, don't we?

This means that eternal damnation is to be laid upon our own precious hides, because of the influences of that other party, who will get his due.

When Jesus said that man will live by Every Word of God, He Most certainly meant the bad Words as well. Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4

I remind the tempter, quite often, of his fate.

John constructs a comparison for us to judge our spiritual progress so "it may be seen" (v.10) that we abide in Him.

"Every one who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him."

Note: "abides in Him". If we continue in sin, we are not abiding in Jesus.

 

[childeye]

You have admitted that you, personally commit sin. Are you "of the devil"? And since you and I sin, I suppose neither one of us is "born of God'? You are taking the strict legalistic view of these verses and missing context. John's point is that we can judge our spiritual progress by our actions. He goes on :"By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother." (1Jn. 3:10 RSV) He is not sitting back in judgment of others, nor is he making the broad sweeping statement that people who are "born of God" don't commit actual sin, otherwise both you and I are hosed...

I think you misunderstand what I am saying, I'm not a strict legalist, Satan is. Hence I am a proponent of mercy wherefore I like the term weakness as opposed to free will. Moreover, as I discover the source of my weakness through the correction of the holy Spirit I am able to become stronger through Christ not free will.

 

[dadof10]

I would say no, reminding you that seeing or not seeing the Truth of the matter at the time of the choice is what determines the desire.

Then there is no "choice", nor are there two conflicting desires. There has to be another option for choice to exist. You have effectively removed choice, free or otherwise. All you are saying here is that whatever desire we have "at the moment of choice or conflict" is the one we will do. One desire, not two. This is why your view is so confusing, first you say we will follow our one desire, then there are two conflicting desires, then, it's impossible to follow the other desire. I'm tapping out...

 

[smaller]

If a believer, in Truth, desires to reign and rule over sin and evil, the last place they should go to is to think they don't have same to rule and reign over.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

God's Words show us how lusts arrive in the flesh, and who they are from. These things are not of God, but we do have to deal with them.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

These are the things we ourselves bear with, in the flesh.

Satan (and his own) "lusts" after the flesh of everyone. Matt. 12:44, Luke 11:24

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Here, Paul links blindness, sin and lust, directly to Satan, the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

That was, and still is, the blinded, captive by Satan, nature, that Paul speaks of. This same Satanic power is what we are turned from.

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

To say this battle ceases after salvation is never true. We actually have to GEAR UP for more even more battle:

Ephesians 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

 

[smaller]

John constructs a comparison for us to judge our spiritual progress so "it may be seen" (v.10) that we abide in Him.

I always examine "how much Gospel Truth" is being spread. What you look for and what I look for in people of faith is probably much different. I tend not to follow liars, for very long. Show me a person of faith who knows his contentions, personally, and the enemy behind and in them, that they RULE over, and with that person of faith in Christ, I am fully aligned.

"Every one who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him."

Note: "abides in Him". If we continue in sin, we are not abiding in Jesus.

I'd suggest your reading added some words that are not there.

In 1 Tim. 1:15, Paul takes us, directly, to the conclusion for himself. And this shows a man, fully engaged in internal battle with the tempter, and he perceives his condition, thusly. The instant temptation enters, if we perceive from whence it comes, then we know that it is not just a minor matter, but that the most wicked thing there is, seeks it's hold on the flesh.

 

[childeye]

Then there is no "choice", nor are there two conflicting desires. There has to be another option for choice to exist. You have effectively removed choice, free or otherwise. All you are saying here is that whatever desire we have "at the moment of choice or conflict" is the one we will do. One desire, not two. This is why your view is so confusing, first you say we will follow our one desire, then there are two conflicting desires, then, it's impossible to follow the other desire. I'm tapping out...

I think you make this difficult to understand. When Satan tempts he is essentially speaking a lie prompting a desire that is a lust. Since this lust exists upon a lie that is being introduced, I believe on the subconscious level, it can happen unawares. The Truth will effectively eliminate the desire, but only when we have the holy Spirit to combat what we otherwise would not even notice. So much of this is about growing in faith, but without the Truth, the lie that the ungodly desire is based upon cannot be exposed, so the lust remains.

 

[dadof10]

I always examine "how much Gospel Truth" is being spread. What you look for and what I look for in people of faith is probably much different. I tend not to follow liars, for very long. Show me a person of faith who knows his contentions, personally, and the enemy behind and in them, that they RULE over, and with that person of faith in Christ, I am fully aligned.



I'd suggest your reading added some words that are not there.

LOL....You can't be serious. "Abiding" assumes continued living. All I said was "If we continue in sin..." For the dictionary definition of "adding words", see below...

In 1 Tim. 1:15, Paul takes us, directly, to the conclusion for himself. And this shows a man, fully engaged in internal battle with the tempter, and he perceives his condition, thusly. The instant temptation enters, if we perceive from whence it comes, then we know that it is not just a minor matter, but that the most wicked thing there is, seeks it's hold on the flesh.

Here is 1Tm 1:15 RSV. "The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. And I am the foremost of sinners;" Where does Paul say that he is "fully engaged in internal battle with the tempter"? He simply says he is a sinner. He doesn't mention a "tempter" or that he is in an "internal battle" with it. Please...

 

[smaller]

LOL....You can't be serious. "Abiding" assumes continued living. All I said was "If we continue in sin..." For the dictionary definition of "adding words", see below...

I highlighted and underlined your personal addition as opposed to the actual citing you used. Simple enuf.

Here is 1Tm 1:15 RSV. "The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. And I am the foremost of sinners;" Where does Paul say that he is "fully engaged in internal battle with the tempter"? He simply says he is a sinner. He doesn't mention a "tempter" or that he is in an "internal battle" with it. Please...

Do you think that Paul was the foremost or chief sinner, after salvation? Paul sez, yes.

And we certainly know that "sin is of the devil" so it is fairly easy to make this connection to Paul and our adversary. 1 John 3:8.

I generally object to any believer who thinks they can make the devil, the tempter, legal, obedient, under Grace, under Mercy, in faith, or NOT a sinner, as that is probably an entirely fruitless engagement of someone engaged in trying to justify our adversary, which is actually a pretty typical work of our adversary, as perhaps childeye has also noted. Deceivers do what deceivers do. I don't expect any outcome other than deception from our adversary. How bout you?

Overcoming the wicked one transpires within us, when we rule over him, not excuse him or provide him cover ups.

1 John 2:14
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

 

[dadof10]

Do you think that Paul was the foremost or chief sinner, after salvation? Paul sez, yes.

And we certainly know that "sin is of the devil" so it is fairly easy to make this connection to Paul and our adversary. 1 John 3:8.

Who was the "foremost or chief sinner", Paul or some "tempter" inside of him? What does the verse actually say, smaller? You are reading your theology into the verse.