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Feminism - Let's just do it

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You know this is really just all academic. The current system of things is never going to change. We are just going to see more and more breakdown of families and morals. It's gone too far. We are past the point of no return. We are in the area of Orwell's 1984 or Huxley's Brave New World.

I think the only way we will ever get back to a moral society is for all this to crash, and it's going to crash horrifically. We will never see a return to God, morals, and nuclear families in our lifetime. Our children and grandchildren will probably never see it either.
 
Look Reba, you seem to be aware of the problem and not particularly opposed to the idea that the cuktural changes starting in 1960 with the Feminist Sexual Revolution is and has been the spring board for our present enormous social problems.
I just dont blame women i blame selfish humans

If you can not see beyond your own protective interests for the women who are not only a part of the cause, for sure, but most the people who must come to believe these charges and work to correct their behaviors and the children they are raising, you make it impossible for change to come.
You have no knowledge of who what i am. nor what i do or have done.

The Women represent the largest sector of the democrat machine which is intent on either applying a little scotch tape on these problems, or defending the present sexually promiscuous, welfare building, anti-marriage and church busting liberalism we are lost.
I am about as anti democrat as a person can get.

Half the men are Gay, girlie-men, Hollywood liberal, or brained wasted over educated academicians who support the women who at about 80%, represent the electorate which must be opposed.
don't blame the women those guys problems belong to those guys
If you will not talk to the women, we can not, because they will do what you are doing.
They will call us misogynists.
why worry about a little name calling.
Again you are blaming women ( me just now) for what you imagine you can not or will not do.


Equal pay for equal work sure that is reasonable.. could i take a 10+ pound sludge hammer and set concrete forms all day like my husband and brother ,no, 1 in a zillion women might could do that. Should bank teller Joe get paid more then bank teller Sally no. People (including women) should not be owned, treated like property.
 
You know this is really just all academic. The current system of things is never going to change. We are just going to see more and more breakdown of families and morals. It's gone too far. We are past the point of no return. We are in the area of Orwell's 1984 or Huxley's Brave New World.

I think the only way we will ever get back to a moral society is for all this to crash, and it's going to crash horrifically. We will never see a return to God, morals, and nuclear families in our lifetime. Our children and grandchildren will probably never see it either.
Joe when we look at history ( not the revised stuff) even as far back as the OT we see 'waves' of prosperity leading to lack of morals a crash turning to God a building to/of prosperity leading to lack of morals a crash turning to God a building to/of get the idea and the OT was before 1960.

Sadly i would be surprise if you are not correct.
 
You know this is really just all academic. The current system of things is never going to change. We are just going to see more and more breakdown of families and morals. It's gone too far. We are past the point of no return. We are in the area of Orwell's 1984 or Huxley's Brave New World.

I think the only way we will ever get back to a moral society is for all this to crash, and it's going to crash horrifically. We will never see a return to God, morals, and nuclear families in our lifetime. Our children and grandchildren will probably never see it either.


You are a realist.
The momentum seems irreconciliable with what would have to be done.


What usually happenes at this point is the nation is invaded by the NEIGHBORING patriarchy, or a Strong Father Figure rises up and is supported by the barbarians within who see him as th great savior.

It has happened again and again as one strong patriarch after the next has built up a Rich Golden Age only to watch the liberal forces change the focus from a Supply Side economy to one focused upon Distribution as if the money from production grew on trees.

But those golden ages did not have the communication system available to us, today.
They could not duplicate the arguments we are presenting here.
They were not able to influence the populous by organizing an Attack Group which could articulate the problem and enumerate the solution.

Nor did they have the Bible which could support their arguments and allow them to speak directly to the churches and gett tyhe ready army of people who might pay attention since it is supported by the Bible if one looks for it.



... and, since the whole Western Culture is about to fall, not just America, ther is nothing else to be done no other place to run,... nothing left but to try.
 
-snip-<o:tongue<o:tongue


Such sweeping generalizations.

Some of those problems were already in the works before feminism came around, and, again, there is and was a lot going on that could just as easily cause the problems we see.</o
</o
<o:tongue<o:tongue
Have certain forms of feminism contributed to it? Possibly. I don't know enough to say for certain, and I get the feeling there is more to it than that.
</o
</o
 
It isn't all inclusive and doesn't list the genders of the nursing staff.

I stated most abortionists are male, and backed this up with evidence. You then change the question to something far broader. Don't move the goalposts just because you're losing.

Now, what percentage of people who have abortions performed on themselves are women? Umm...I believe that would be 100%.

You're being silly now. Countless men abandon their paternal responsibilities too. They don't have abortions because they don't need to; they can just walk away. The breakdown of families does not fall solely at the foot of women.

There's also many women in the anti-abortion movement. have you ever heard of Lila Rose? You should read up on her before declaring all feminist leaders to be pro-abortion.
 
BobE, I have a Bible. Therefore, you cannot twist scripture without being caught. In Ephesians 5:21, Paul is speaking to members of the church in relations with other members of the church. Read the next verse:



Far from how you attempt to misuse scripture, the Bible clearly states that men and women are not "equal". The man is clearly above or "the head" of the woman. Do you have some form of pamphlet entitled: "Bible verses to use against Christians who never read their Bibles to support cultural marxism"?

You can't get away with it, pal. I have a Bible and I actually read it - all of it.

The only reason I'm aware of that anyone would separate Ephesians 5:21 and 22 is because some Bible translations insert a heading prior to verse 22 that tends to say something like "instructions for family life." This makes it appear that 5:21 talks about church life and 5:22 talks about home life.

What you don't seem to be aware of is that these headings are not part of the Greek manuscripts. In other words, they are not the Bible.

What you also don't seem to be aware of is that verse 22, in the Greek text, does not even contain the verb "submit." In actual fact, verse 21 and 22 are one sentence. In other words they apply equally to the church and family life.

If husbands are to take the lead in anything, it is setting an example of service, not acting like someone else's master.

If this isn't clear in the verses I've already cited, perhaps this will clarifies things further:
The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called “benefactors.†But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves. For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves. (Luke 22:25-27, NKJV)
and,

Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God, rose from supper and laid aside His garments, took a towel and girded Himself. After that, He poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded…. So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.†(John 13:3-5, 12-15)

This is the example husbands are commanded to follow in the Bible. Men are not supposed to act like women's masters. Husbands are not to act like masters of wives. We are called to set an example of loving and sacrificial service. I'm really not sure how the biblical authors could make this more clear. For those that have ears to hear I guess.
 
We often forget our Scriptures were not written in chapter and verse...
 
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Yes, I know what the term means and I used it correctly.

No you didn't actually, and I have not made any dichotomies at all in my statements on this thread. I could see you arguing post hoc ergo propter hoc, but it's a moot point. If I were to nitpick every logical fallacy you've used, this topic would be totally derailed

Your second point is utterly irrelevant. Feminism post-dates voting rights by forty years.

Susan B Anthony and Henry & Elizabeth Stanton were leading first wave feminists who were extremely instrumental in obtaining suffrage for women (and black people). They were active at the end of the 19th century, whereas the 19th amendment was not passed until 1920.

I would remind you that you started this thread and entitled it "Feminism - Let's just do it" the subject is not the right to vote or own property, but feminism. You clearly stated that without feminism women could not vote, earn money, own property, etc. and that is a false dichotomy.

*I* started this thread? Oh my, I totally forgot!

Voting rights was the first (and arguably biggest) victory for what is commonly referred to as feminism; back then it was known as civil rights. You know that you'd be laughed out of the room if you were to suggest that we got that wrong, so you instead focus on more extreme aspects of the movement (which I don't necessarily disagree with you on, abortion is an abomination. However, too many people lump all women's rights activism as extremism despite the important gains I've mentioned previously)
 
Let's see if we can find some common ground, Dave.

Step one is for our sisters to vote in Romney and all the most conservative legislaturers with him.

I'm pretty apolitical, but this would be 100% fine with me.

The next is that they speak out against the sexual promiscuity that leads to the dilemma of either Aborting the first grand kids, (which they do, until our women are over age 26 and married), or doubling up Welfare now budgeted at the same level as the Military each year.

So far so good, no objections yet. Let's see if we can keep this up.

Demand that these new conservative representatives in government repudiate No Fault Divorce and reinstitute the practice of stripping the adulterous party of as much property as possible.

I like this to a certain point, so long as provisions are made to protect the interests of minor children.

The next thing is for mothers to insist their daughters marry the guy they get pregnant by, so as to return to the previous conventions that required girls to be pretty certain the guy would marry her if need be.

Hit and miss. Ideally yes, a couple that made a mistake and had sex too early would be best served by getting married and raising the child if it's possible. However, I'm sure there are situations where one or both of the parents are simply unsuitable for the job of raising a child. I'm a big supporter of adoption in this case. I'll give you 60% agreement for this.

Then,... end welfare with a grand mom clause that still covers the dependent mothers of today, but denies any funding for newbies.

Nope, you lost me. You cannot starve a child simply because of the poor choices of the parent.

Follow this with reducing the Work Force by eliminating the women's membership in the Labor Market, hence eliminating the present Unemployment, and decreasing the Labor Supply,... hence, raising wages.

You're saying women shouldn't work? Good luck with that.

First of all, we don't have anything close to 50% adult unemployment, so there's not nearly enough workers for only men to be working.

Second, it causes women to be completely dependent on men. I can see how some guys would absolutely LOVE this concept, but I don't think I need to point out the many pitfalls.

What about women who choose to remain single? You've eliminated welfare, remember. Do they choose between marrying the first man they can or else starving?

What if the woman's husband dies, or becomes disabled and unable to work due to accident or illness?

What if the man simply leaves her?

Then increase the Minimum Wage so unskilled male laborers can support a family on their salary.

I'm of mixed opinions on minimum wage, but not due to this topic in any way.

Okay, some good points, but you seem to be going a fair bit too far with your kicking women out of the workforce. Not all women want to be completely dependent on a husband.
 
Darkhorse, why are you lumping the Women's Suffrage Movement of the early 20th Century together with Women's Liberation Movement that started in the 60's?
 
So I can tell there's some individuals who are itching to tackle this topic; to the point that "feminism" comments are crawling into things that have only tangential connections to them. So, I'm down for just having it out here.

I don't think feminism is in any way the threat that some people make it out to be. The original feminism was to allow women to be seen under the law as persons; to own property and be able to vote. Then it extended to allowing women equal protection at jobs. So far, so good. Nowadays mainstream "feminism" (nobody really calls it that anymore) seems to have calmed down considerably as women are generally treated as equals by governments, courts, and employers.

I sometimes wonder if the people most opposed to equality for women are themselves more threatened than average by the prospect. I know I'm as comfortable with a woman supervisor as a man, ditto for coworkers.

At the very least, people can hopefully distinguish between radical feminism (which should be ignored, like radicals from any demographic including religious), and women in general. Because I've seen a lot of pretty misogynistic posts on here lately.

Well, I dunno what to say. Shall someone post a long angry rant about females, perhaps?

Oh, one final request: if anyone feels the need to talk about "Marxist feminists", can you kindly explain the link between the two? Because women didn't exactly fare too well under communism, and Marx himself was a womanizer who got his housekeeper pregnant.


Joe, I took Darkhorse to be talking about the climb women have made from a long time back.... seems to me our replies put it in the 60s
 
Okay, some good points, but you seem to be going a fair bit too far with your kicking women out of the workforce. Not all women want to be completely dependent on a husband.


The idea is that unskilled low paid women in the work force will have the choice to stay home and raise a family once the Min Wage pushes up the earning for the next geneation of guys who enter the work force at a wage which is enough to pay the rent and support the family without the wife working.

Once women perfer to marry and depend upon the husband to earn the paycheck the decrease in the Labor Pool will force emploiyers back to paying a livable wage.
Today, at entrance level wages a High School grad can not think of marriage nor can the girls who get pregnant anyway.
 
Darkhorse, why are you lumping the Women's Suffrage Movement of the early 20th Century together with Women's Liberation Movement that started in the 60's?


Right.

The Sexual Revolution created a whoredom which the Bible refers to again and again as the cause of great troubles.
 
Joe, I took Darkhorse to be talking about the climb women have made from a long time back.... seems to me our replies put it in the 60s
It is a process of Social Evolution.


It is a process of social evolution, of course.

Christianity was supposed to stop the development of feminine power to oppose the unfair repression and state of servitude at just the right point in the transistion from a total patriarchy towars a more matriarchial society.

Christiannattitudes where supposed to balance the relationship between men and women at just the point where the compromisenwasntolerable, though like all compromises, epoplke were lessnthan totally happy.

The sexual revolution went the next step by granting the woman the license to use sex as a negotiating tool wity ojne man after the neat if they did not get the price of their demands met.

No Fault Divorce even allowed them to re-evaluate their sexual worth as they discovered men continued to pursue them even when married.
 
The idea is that unskilled low paid women in the work force will have the choice to stay home and raise a family once the Min Wage pushes up the earning for the next geneation of guys who enter the work force at a wage which is enough to pay the rent and support the family without the wife working.

Once women perfer to marry and depend upon the husband to earn the paycheck the decrease in the Labor Pool will force emploiyers back to paying a livable wage.
Today, at entrance level wages a High School grad can not think of marriage nor can the girls who get pregnant anyway.

Interesting. And how do you propose to remove women from the workforce to set this plan in motion?
 
We often forget our Scriptures were not written in chapter and verse...

Yes, that's exactly right. No chapters, no verse numbers, no headings, and certainly not written in English until more than a thousand years after they were authored.
 
Someone asked me earlier in the thread if I've read a pamphlet on "Bible verses that support equality" or something to that effect.

Actually, no, I haven't read any pamphlets. As a Bible College Professor and Department Head, however, I did spend a number of years researching this topic. My research took me from the oldest Greek manuscripts of the New Testament to some excellent books written by colleagues that I greatly respect. I summarized my findings in a book of my own called "Let My People Go: A Call to End the Oppression of Women in the Church."

My research convinced me that many Christians today are profoundly unaware of changes that took place in the church during the third and fourth centuries. I'd like to reference some of these changes now.

Specifically, I'd like to highlight an incredible difference that can be found in the message of the Bible itself, versus the message of some third century Roman Bishops that helped shape the church's patriarchal traditions.

In the Bible we read that husbands "ruling over" wives is a curse. It is not part of God's design for humanity. It is portrayed as the outcome of sin (Genesis chapter 3). In Galatians chapter 3, the Bible tells us that Jesus died to redeem us from this curse: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law <SUP class=crossreference value='(V)'></SUP>by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole" (Galatians 3:13, NIV).

The biblical author then goes on to say that as a result of Christ's redemption, "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, <SUP class=crossreference value='(AU)'></SUP>nor is there male and female, <SUP class=crossreference value='(AV)'></SUP>for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28, NIV).

This message came at a time when there were sharp divisions between Jews and Gentiles, slaves and free, men and women. This was a radical message, a message of hope for the oppressed. In Christ, these inequalities are ended, we are "all one." In Christ, we are all called to love and serve one another, just as Jesus loved us.

In the third century, the Christian church officially became an institution of the Roman Empire. This was an extremely patriarchal culture. Women were viewed as wild sources of social upheaval that required male supervision from birth until death. Wives were legally beaten to death by Roman husbands if they were not appropriately submissive. Did this merger between Christianity and Roman culture have an impact on the church's view of women?

It's easy to answer this question by sharing quotes from two of Rome's most prominent Bishops of this time period:

St. Augustine:
It is the natural order among people that women serve their husbands and children their parents, because the justice of this lies in (the principle that) the lesser serves the greater…This is the natural justice that the weaker brain serve the stronger. This therefore is the evident justice in the relationships between slaves and their masters, that they who excel in reason, excel in power. (Augustine, as cited in Wijngaards, 2010, emphasis mine) Please not that Augustine is using the same rationale to justify male domination of women, and slavery.

St. John Chrysostom (c347-407), Doctor of the Church and Bishop of Constantinople, said that women are, in general, "weak and flighty." He neatly put together the twin theological ideas of anti-women and anti-sex in this passage: "It does not profit a man to marry. For what is a woman but an enemy of friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a domestic danger, delectable mischief, a fault in nature, painted with beautiful colors?" [11] To help believers overcome the temptation of women, Chrysostom devised the following description: "The whole of her body is nothing less than phlegm, blood, bile, rheum and the fluid of digested food ... If you consider what is stored up behind those lovely eyes, the angle of the nose, the mouth and the cheeks you will agree that the well-proportioned body is only a whitened sepulchre." [12] A clearer example of outright woman-hate would be difficult to find.

Another notable scholar from this time period was St. Jerome. Please note that he was one of the first Bible translators.

St. Jerome (c342-420), the well known Biblical scholar and translator of the Bible into Latin (the Vulgate) have a simple view of women. To him "woman is the root of all evil." [8] Like all the early Christian theologians, Jerome glorified virginity and looked down on marriage. He reasoning, was also rooted in Genesis: "Eve in paradise was a virgin ... understand that virginity is natural and that marriage comes after the Fall." [9] The marital act to Jerome cannot be good because it only acts as a relief valve: "Thus it must be bad to touch a woman. If indulgences is nonetheless granted to the marital act, this is only to avoid something worse. But what value can be recognized in a good that is allowed only with a view of preventing something worse?" Jerome wrote that the only good thing about marriage is that "it produces virgins." [10] http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/womenfathers.html

Augustine also believed that "flesh" in the Bible refers to women, and "spirit" refers to men. Just as the spirit must rule the flesh, he taught, men must rule women. (Trombley, 2003). Jerome said that women are saved from sin by bearing children, literally.

These views of women from this point forward became the official doctrine of the church. At the turn of the millenium they became known as "canon law." Resistance to this law was quite literally punishable by death--burning at the stake to be precise.

Luther, a protestant reformer, was also an Augustinian monk. He had similar views of women. Calvin, another protestant reformer, based much of his theology--including his views of women--on the writings of St. Augustine. Thus, Augustine's misogyny spread into the Protestant churches, and became "official church doctrine" there as well.

Those who say things like, "the Bible teaches that women are inferior" (particularly those that look down on "education") quite literally have absolutely no idea what legacy they are passing on. They are not passing on the gospel of freedom from the curse that the Bible teaches. They are passing an oppressive prejudice that has its origin in ancient Rome.

I can't help remembering how Jesus confronted the religious leaders of his day for nullifying the word of God by giving priority to the traditions of man. I think some church leaders do the same when they absorb and teach Augustine's twisted worldview and nullify the redemption we have in Christ.
 
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The idea is that unskilled low paid women in the work force will have the choice to stay home and raise a family once the Min Wage pushes up the earning for the next geneation of guys who enter the work force at a wage which is enough to pay the rent and support the family without the wife working.

Once women perfer to marry and depend upon the husband to earn the paycheck the decrease in the Labor Pool will force emploiyers back to paying a livable wage.
Today, at entrance level wages a High School grad can not think of marriage nor can the girls who get pregnant anyway.

If women can't have jobs then their only choices are to either stay with their families, or get married...


What about someone like me who feels like I'm not yet prepared for anything like marriage?
Having a job is the only way I can support myself.
Even if I do stay with my family for a few years (and currently I do still live with them), it would be a huge help to them if I were able to help out with expenses. They are NOT in good financial shape and neither of my parents are able to work--especially not my dad. We have to live on things like food stamps--we have no choice.
If you take away women's ability to have a job, I'm screwed. And so are others like me. Your idea would cause more problems than it would solve.
Fortunately a vote on taking that right away would get very little support, so I have nothing to worry about.


And seeing as the Bible doesn't require us to get married*, I could see myself remaining single all my life, too.

*"For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I."~I Corinthians 7:7-8 KJV
 
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