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For whom did Christ die? My understanding is, He died for all mankind
- Thread starter Bick
- Start date
Jim Parker
Member
You are right.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1John 2:1-2)
iakov the fool
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1John 2:1-2)
iakov the fool
Not_Now.Soon
Member
Jesus said He did not come to judge the world but to save it. None the less He also said that those who reject Him will be judged and several parables and teachings reference a description of Hell. Pray and hope for those in the world that do not know God or do not know Jesus. Many of us and our loved ones are in danger, and we do not know how we will be judged. Pray and hope. Then try to do right by God.
Bick here. Yes, indeed. All humanity will be judged for their deeds: the church body of Christ, the saved of Israel and all others. But what our apostle Paul says, "The wages of sin is death," Rom. 6:23, not eternal punishment in hell.
And, as I read literal translations, such as Young's or Rotherham's, punishments are not unending, but are limited for the ages to come (two, IMO.).
Jim Parker
Member
Yes. Correct. Those are two entirely different things.
Christ's death and resurrection dealt with the wages of sin being death.
Everyone will be raised from the dead never to physically die again.
But not everyone gets eternal life; only those who obey the commands of Christ.
Those who did not obey (to the best of their ability, as I see it) go to hell and hell gets tossed into the lake of burning sulfur which is the second death.
(Mat 25:3-46; Jhn 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17; Rev 20:12-13; 22:12 -14)
Not_Now.Soon
Member
The bible gives several warnings of a place of unending suffering.
YES
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Bick here. The Scriptures are, of course, the final word on such matters.
The delimma is, the doctrine of conscious eternal torment, and the many verses that tell us that God is the Savior of all mankind, can't both be true.
How would you solve it?
Jesus did save all mankind, our sins are no longer counted against us. All God requires from us now is that we don't throw the gift of faith and forgiveness away. As Reba showed in her post with John 3:18; "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Jesus told us in Mark 3:28-29 "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation." There are many passages about people being condemn to hell, the parable of the sheep and goats from Matthew 25:31-46 being one. Even though Jesus saved all mankind, not all mankind wants to be saved and therefore will not.
Jim Parker
Member
What is a "literal translation."
It is not possible to exactly translate every nuance of a literary work from one language to another and to the difficulty with scripture is added the complications of translating from ancient, near eastern dead languages to modern, western English.
The modern translations we have are very good but I always wonder what someone means when they use the term, "literal."
iakovos the fool
Not_Now.Soon
Member
If there is a time that we pit one verse against another, then that should be a sign that something is wrong. If we can't reconcile the two, instead of picking one and ignoring the other, we should be content that it's in God's hands.
The bible is clear when it speaks of the punishment. So we can not say it is not there. Nor can we assume no one will go there. However it is worth hoping on the salvation of others, even if we don't know their future.
Chopper
Member
Jim Parker
Member
I would attempt to "solve" the "dilemma" by attempting to clear up the widespread confusion between "Salvation" and "eternal life." (Often conflated with the idea of "going to heaven.")
Satan deceived eve and enticed her and Adam to sin.
The wages of sin is death.
Man was not created to die. He was given free access to the "tree of life."
After Adam sinned, his access to the tree of life was revoked.
Jesus, who is both God and Man, lived a life without sin and so was not subject to the death which is the wages of sin.
HE voluntarily died for the sin of all mankind.
The He rose from the dead thereby destroying the power of death for all mankind. (See 1Cor 15:52 ff)
Because he destroyed the power of death for all mankind: --> HE SAVED ALL MANKIND FROM DEATH DUE TO SIN.
So what about eternal life and "going to heaven"?
Those who choose to obey Jesus as best they can by doing the good works God created them to do (Eph 2:10) get eternal life.
Those who choose to ignore Jesus commands and offer of eternal life and, instead, choose to do evil get the second death in the lake of burning sulfur.
Jesus said at John 5:28-29 (NKJV)
… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Jesus also said at John 3:36 (NKJV)
He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God rests upon him.
So Jesus is the savior of all mankind (1Tim 4:10b) but He doesn't force anyone to accept the gift of eternal life.
Everyone will be raised from the dead because Jesus destroyed the power death had over mankind. (1Cor 15:52-55)
Where you spend eternity is up to you.
(Mat 25:31-46; Jhn 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17; Rev 20:12-13; 22:12 - 14)
Hope that clears things up a bit.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:20-23
All people will die a physical death of the their physical body, no mater how righteous or unrighteous they are.
Paul is contrasting the two possible outcomes for us here on earth:
Eternal life is being contrasted with eternal death.
Paul is certainly not contrasting eternal life with physical death, since those who have eternal life will experience physical death.
Even those who are alive and remain till the coming of the Lord, will shed their physical body for a glorified body that will never die.
The point being their old physical body will be done away with, to give way for the new transformed body.
JLB
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