Forgive from the heart - everyone

[PeterJens]

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart
Matt 18:35

"A person can forgive everyone who ever did something against him, it does not mean he will get to heaven. Thats your first flaw.
(Personally I believe Christ is the only one who ever fulfilled this.so the point is mute)"

The first quote is the bible, implying that we are to forgive all from the heart, or at least our brothers in Christ.
Based on the Lords prayer, we are to forgive all because God has forgiven us.

The second quote is someone who actually believes forgiving all is impossible for man and only God.
This same individual claims one can walk in purity of heart, and true cleansing by God, except what they mean is not obviously
forgiving everyone we know who we hold something against.

Now for some this is a salvation issue, based on the following

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Matt 6:14-15

And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
Mark 11:25

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Luke 6:37

In double speak it is impossible to get honest answers out of some.
For me, if forgiving is a choice we can exercise we can choose to forgive all, because in reality
the life we lead in Jesus is worth so much more than anyone could give us in repaying a debt
they owe to us, I would happily give them a blessing and freedom from obligation if they can
receive the blessing I have had in Jesus, Amen.

To people who cannot forgive, you have not met or known Jesus properly. His ministry is
conditional forgiveness and grace, becoming like Him, knowing our debt and His love.

 

[PeterJens]

"You don't forgive....God chastens you and you get some consequences of your sins....only NOT eternal death...we get eternal life as a free gift from God...not based on if we do or don't forgive.

If we don't forgive....we get chastenment....not cast out of the family."

How can anyone believe the above statement?
It is like God, Jesus did not say exactly the opposite.
Even the Lords prayer teaches this lesson.

Why is it people claim to know God, to have Him as their Lord, yet the cornerstone of
the gospel is just ignored. Upon what basis can we not forgive? Because the debt owed
to us by anyone is more important and bigger than the debt we owe to Jesus for the
forgiveness of our sins?

This for me is the sinners dilemma. This hurt I have here is so important to me, it out
weighs any other issue in my life, so I refuse to give it up. Now when we feel this hurt,
like I felt a few days ago, it is pain that goes to our core, except it is just the feeling of
the moment to reset our behaviour, and approach an issue more carefully.

But for some the hurt is an idol, that God is not allowed near. The foolishness of this,
is God is above everything and the most important being in the universe, so to exclude
Him is to sign ones own destruction. You would think this realisation might shake some
up but selfishness and defence is so strong, sinners will be thrown into the lake of fire
believing they were right and it is God who is wrong........

 

[WIP]

If we don't forgive....we get chastenment....not cast out of the family."

What does that look like? In other words, what is the chastenment you speak of?

 

[PeterJens]

What does that look like? In other words, what is the chastenment you speak of?

This was a statement made by a methodist free grace believer. I think they mean to be told off
rebuked, but without eternal consequences only reward removal issues.

This particular group have created a view that you can be saved but only just, a carnal believer,
ie have had faith but live like the world and still enter heaven. This is elevating the point of coming
to faith to absolute significance irrespective of behaviour or consequences or actually how it works
out. The problem I have with this position is Ezek 18:21-26

God makes it clear is ones behaviour dictates ones future, even when temporary, the current situation
dominates ones eternal future. What a lot of believers want is the lucky ticket, once held all is secure.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Yeah I don't know. That takes salvation out of the free gift of grace category and puts it in works. There's more to this idea that needs to be explored. Yes we ought to forgive others but this is impossible without the Spirit of God enabling us. Since that is the case, then it's not us, but the Spirit at work in us that gives us the ability to forgive. In that case, if we aren't forgiving, it's because we don't have the spirit.

We cannot forgive properly from the flesh. Only from the Spirit which is in Christ.

I think the verses you offer need to be explored further.

 

[Papa Zoom]

And the reason we have the "hyper grace" movement is because of legalistic claims on the faith. Jesus destroyed this idea that the Jewish leaders tried to pawn off on the people. Legalism is heresy and sinful to its very core.

 

[PeterJens]

Yeah I don't know. That takes salvation out of the free gift of grace category and puts it in works. There's more to this idea that needs to be explored. Yes we ought to forgive others but this is impossible without the Spirit of God enabling us. Since that is the case, then it's not us, but the Spirit at work in us that gives us the ability to forgive. In that case, if we aren't forgiving, it's because we don't have the spirit.

We cannot forgive properly from the flesh. Only from the Spirit which is in Christ.

I think the verses you offer need to be explored further.

It is true it is always possible to believe legalism, ie the idea rules however well defined, define salvation or not.
The idea is if you are a good person, you will go to heaven. It tends to lead to self righteous behaviour, a sense
of superiority.

The tension is we are one with Jesus, so slaves to righteousness, to expressing love. Part of this love is to forgive
as we have been forgiven.

Where I start to wonder is why Jesus talks about ones "brother" and not ones neighbour. Equally Jesus suggests
the disciples could decide who to forgive and who not to forgive. This implies some level of not forgiving is ok.

Hyper grace seems to have arisen out of the chinese culture where obligation and rules are everything. So emphasising
there are no rules, is going too far. Equally some strict and particular baptists create a culture of total uniformity, where
identity is to the group, to a degree greater than the Lord would put down. So I see forgiveness is essential within the
body of Christ, and bearing sins done against us, is part of carrying our cross daily.

Forgiveness is always in the context of we have been forgiven much, therefore we should forgive the minor things done
against us.

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
Romans 12:17-20

So maybe forgiveness is not as open as I first thought.

So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
Luke 17:3-4

This implies forgiveness should only be given is ones brother repents.
So this is tempering the idea of forgiveness, that it can be withheld.

Is this a contradiction? Not sure, but it seems to implying different things.

 

[WIP]

Yeah I don't know. That takes salvation out of the free gift of grace category and puts it in works. There's more to this idea that needs to be explored. Yes we ought to forgive others but this is impossible without the Spirit of God enabling us. Since that is the case, then it's not us, but the Spirit at work in us that gives us the ability to forgive. In that case, if we aren't forgiving, it's because we don't have the spirit.

We cannot forgive properly from the flesh. Only from the Spirit which is in Christ.

I think the verses you offer need to be explored further.

This prompted another question for me. If it is not possible for us to forgive then why does Scripture tell us that we must forgive or we will not be forgiven? See Matthew 6:14, Matthew 18:11-22, Mark 11:25, Luke 6:37, for examples.

 

[Papa Zoom]

This prompted another question for me. If it is not possible for us to forgive then why does Scripture tell us that we must forgive or we will not be forgiven? See Matthew 6:14, Matthew 18:11-22, Mark 11:25, Luke 6:37, for examples.

Perhaps because the true sign of a spirit filled believer is the ability to forgive as we've been forgiven and to love others as we are loved.

 

[WIP]

Perhaps because the true sign of a spirit filled believer is the ability to forgive as we've been forgiven and to love others as we are loved.

Does it make sense though that a Spirit filled person would forgive by default? In other words, if the Holy Spirit is in control, we would give up our own will to His and do what is right in the eyes of God - forgive.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Does it make sense though that a Spirit filled person would forgive by default? In other words, if the Holy Spirit is in control, we would give up our own will to His and do what is right in the eyes of God - forgive.

Well yes if the HS is in control. Then we have given up our will to His. But if we resist in the area of forgiveness, then no. But in that case the HS isn't in control, we are.

I think forgiving fully is one of the most difficult things we must do. Sometimes people wrong us deeply and holding on to that is, I think, the natural inclination we have. Even if in other areas of our lives the HS is obviously at work. I say this because it's the one area I struggle with the most.

When God forgives it's as if we hadn't done wrong. When I forgive, I still remember and occasionally visit my bitterness. I have to go to God a lot for help.

Also, there are people who have wrong us that we just don't like. We don't like to be around them and basically want nothing or little to do with them. How does that fit into forgiveness? I don't know. Like if a best friend sleeps with the wife, and asks for forgiveness, you grant it. But then, the friendship is ruined and will never return. Trust is broken. Is that still forgiveness? I suppose it's not fully. God forgets, we remember.

 

[WIP]

Well yes if the HS is in control. Then we have given up our will to His. But if we resist in the area of forgiveness, then no. But in that case the HS isn't in control, we are.

I think forgiving fully is one of the most difficult things we must do. Sometimes people wrong us deeply and holding on to that is, I think, the natural inclination we have. Even if in other areas of our lives the HS is obviously at work. I say this because it's the one area I struggle with the most.

When God forgives it's as if we hadn't done wrong. When I forgive, I still remember and occasionally visit my bitterness. I have to go to God a lot for help.

Also, there are people who have wrong us that we just don't like. We don't like to be around them and basically want nothing or little to do with them. How does that fit into forgiveness? I don't know. Like if a best friend sleeps with the wife, and asks for forgiveness, you grant it. But then, the friendship is ruined and will never return. Trust is broken. Is that still forgiveness? I suppose it's not fully. God forgets, we remember.

Thank you, Papa. I will give this some thought. I feel as though I'm in conflict with it but I'm not sure yet, if that makes any sense.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Thank you, Papa. I will give this some thought. I feel as though I'm in conflict with it but I'm not sure yet, if that makes any sense.

I think it's a struggle for most of us. My wife's best friend hurt her deeply and it ruined the friendship. They still talk but I can tell my wife can't let go of losing the friendship even though she's the one that ended it! Her friend never really owned up to the wrong and just moved on with her other friends. That hurts as well. So my wife holds this grudge and it surfaces frequently. This is over a year ago! I have situations that I'm dealing with as well but I think guys handle things differently than women. We have different filters. At least this is true of my wife and myself. God bless!

 

[Razeontherock]

This was a statement made by a methodist free grace believer. I think they mean to be told off
rebuked, but without eternal consequences only reward removal issues.

This particular group have created a view that you can be saved but only just, a carnal believer,
ie have had faith but live like the world and still enter heaven. This is elevating the point of coming
to faith to absolute significance irrespective of behaviour or consequences or actually how it works
out. The problem I have with this position is Ezek 18:21-26

God makes it clear is ones behaviour dictates ones future, even when temporary, the current situation
dominates ones eternal future. What a lot of believers want is the lucky ticket, once held all is secure.

That last sentence there, First Church of Willy Wonka?

 

[Razeontherock]

Well yes if the HS is in control. Then we have given up our will to His. But if we resist in the area of forgiveness, then no. But in that case the HS isn't in control, we are.

I think forgiving fully is one of the most difficult things we must do. Sometimes people wrong us deeply and holding on to that is, I think, the natural inclination we have. Even if in other areas of our lives the HS is obviously at work. I say this because it's the one area I struggle with the most.

When God forgives it's as if we hadn't done wrong. When I forgive, I still remember and occasionally visit my bitterness. I have to go to God a lot for help.

Also, there are people who have wrong us that we just don't like. We don't like to be around them and basically want nothing or little to do with them. How does that fit into forgiveness? I don't know. Like if a best friend sleeps with the wife, and asks for forgiveness, you grant it. But then, the friendship is ruined and will never return. Trust is broken. Is that still forgiveness? I suppose it's not fully. God forgets, we remember.

Papa forgive me!

Lol no seriously, this is a GREAT discussion. Such an important issue. Also deals with the topics of Christian maturity and discipleship that are central to so many of the debates but I never see mentioned as such.

Christ in us - forgives! We certainly have the power to quench the Spirit. We can also be ignorant of our lack of forgiveness in any particular area, possibly going back through our entire lifetime. We can also forgive someone but it resurfaces within us, and we can fail to recognize our need to forgive all over again. This can be "the tempter's power," it can be our own mind, it can mean we never forgave in the first place.

And I'm sure there are many other possibilities I haven't mentioned. We deal with ALL of them the same way: forgive!

Romans 7:24. O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

 

[PeterJens]

"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
None of the offences he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.
But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life.
Because he considers all the offences he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die.
Ezekiel 18:21-28

The Lord is strange to our way of thinking.
I have heard the argument that God sees the heart so judges by the heart and not by actions.
Now this makes sense if you say, when a good work is done, but for the wrong reasons it is not a good work.

And the Lord knows the future so all work can be viewed in light of the future, so a person who later will leave the
faith, all their good works are counted as nothing because of the later leaving the faith.

But the Lord is laying a foundation, that He literally looks at the moment and counts this alone.
Fate does not actually exist, we are not doomed to do something, it is always our choice and our walk in the Lord.
If one says everything is driven by the reality of our end, then there is no responsibility or chance for any. But the Lord
is careful to declare that actually we are rewarded by our walk today, and called to stay in the Lord all our lives.

So though Judas was prophesied to deny Jesus and betray Him, Judas always had a choice, and Jesus kept the door open,
so that guilt was complete. So our actions do show what we are inside, and how we view the world.

Our calling is therefore to forgive, to empathise, to reach out and to understand. But we have limits, and though the door
is open, it will eventually close.

Now for some the idea of Jesus being 100% consistent, and our denial, sin and faith can fluctuate but this has no
consequences is simply not biblical. Are we children of heaven or caught in this world?