Forum Poll

[Papa Zoom]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

The question that you have asked is an oxymoron. An oxymoron is a combination of contradictory words like "cruel kindness". there is no such "animal". Cruel and kindness doesn't go together. It is impossible for a "born again" Christian to become "un-born again", or depart from the faith. Christians are kept by the power of God unto "the day of redemption". There is no one that has that ability.

Another example of an oxymoron is: "Can God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it". God is all powerful, therefore there is nothing that he can't do.

I agree with this idea. Here's the problem I have with the OP (I voted no by the way)

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved.

No. Because you aren't born again if you ever reject Jesus as Lord and Savior. You were a tare among the wheat. A goat among the sheep. You were a fake.

I voted no because it's impossible to be born from above and then walk away. A person who walks away was never born from above.

My position on eternal security combines arguments from both OSAS and OSNAS. Both positions have truth and error in them. The real truth is in the middle.

God saves and God keeps.
Truly saved people are changed inside out by the Power of the Spirit of God.
This change is manifest in words and deeds.
Fruit always follows in a true believers life.
1 Corinthians 13 'Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous;
love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly;
it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails; ............................ '
1 Corinthians 13:4-8 https://www.bible.com/bible/100/1CO.13.4-8

'But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. gentleness, self-control;
against such things there is no law.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another. '
Galatians 5:22-26 https://www.bible.com/bible/100/GAL.5.22-26

The Spirit will generate fruit in the lives of TRUE believers. Marginal believers or those who are on fire but their flame burns out are not regenerated. Do people walk away from faith? Yes. But they were never among us to begin with.

Must we endure to the end? Yes and we will because He who began a good work in you IS ABLE to complete it! And He will!

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Colossians 1:10 (NASB)
so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every goodwork and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Ephesians 2:10 (NASB)
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Jude 1:24 (NASB)
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

I know there are plenty of verses that seem to indicate one can "lose" salvation. But you can't have Jesus keeping you from stumbling and then you also stumble at the same time. God saves. God keeps. We are HIS workmanship. Not our own. In our own strength, we will fail. In HIM, we cannot fail. God is at work in us. It is HIS work that keeps us and that prompts us unto obedience and good works.

God loves a broken and contrite heart:
Psalms 51:17 (NASB)
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

David was a murderer, adulterer, liar, and a host of other things. But he was a man after God's own heart. Why? When confronted with his sin, he was broken over it and confessed with a repentant heart.

Matthew 7:17 (NASB)
So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.

Good trees are those truly saved. Bad trees are the unsaved. Many unsaved go to church each week but they are bad trees - goats - tares!

If God changes your heart, your heart will be truly changed. And no one (not even yourself) can snatch you out of His Holy Hands!

 

[civilwarbuff]

Well said PZ........

 

[Papa Zoom]

BTW, I'm not going to quibble over verses someone throws back at me. I've posted my position above and you can take it or leave it. I stand firm on Eternal Security because it's a work of God and not of me.

I may add more later to my position but I won't engage in an endless circle of quoting verses back and forth at each other. That is an endless cycle that never bears fruit except bad fruit.

State your position, others can take it or leave it. That's what I intend to do. ;)

In Christ! ~Papa

 

[Papa Zoom]

I would honestly like to see just how many people believe they will still be saved if they reject Jesus as Lord for another god.


Please at least answer the poll.


I would rather no one posts anything, but just answer the poll the way they believe.

But please take note that your poll doesn't represent all views on Eternal Security. Mine isn't there which is why I explained it. I voted no because it's impossible to be born again and then not be born again. That makes no sense. To be born from above is to be born again from Almighty God. He is able and He will do it.

 

[Papa Zoom]

If you think that someone can never depart from the faith, then please explain why Paul would state this in scripture.



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1




JLB

because they were never among us

1 John 2:19 (NASB)
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

 

[Kidron]

[QUOTE="JLB, post: 1434644, member: 2772"

How many believe that a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, in which they depart from faith in Him, and turn to the antichrist, or Allah, or some other god, and confess him as Lord and Savior, and still be saved on the Day of Judgement, when Christ returns?
JLB[/QUOTE]

-

Faith does not save you.
So, if you are trusting in your Faith, or pursuing this as your means to get yourself into heaven, then you ARE NOT TRUSTING IN CHRIST AS "THE WAY", AND IN FACT you are as lost as a monkey in a mall, come judgement day.

Faith, is the MEANS, whereby God saved you.

Let me give you a simple analogy.

Have you ever pumped gas into your car?
Ok, think of it like this..
The Gas in the Pump, is Salvation, is God's grace....and YOU are the empty tank, that's lost, hell bound, and unregenerated.
The HOSE, is FAITH.
The HOSE< is the device that connects, the gas to the tank, and once its in the tank then its FULL.
Full = born again.
Done deal.
Now, you as the full tank, are as full of JESUS and GOD as you are going to get., and you are "SEALED" this way, by the Holy Spirit.
You didnt do any of that...and you cant undo it......All you can do is ither behave as you should, or behave as you should not, but you are not able to change what is in your TANK.
Now, you think on that, for a while....JLB


See, God saved you using Christ's blood to forgive you, and in doing so, God also gives you His very righteousness as "the gift of righteousness".
Salvation, is not deeds you do after you are saved, as so many can't seem to understand.
Salvation is what HAPPENED TO YOU, THAT GOD DID FOR YOU, AND THAT IS NOT CONNECTED TO YOUR BEHAVIOR AFTER HE DOES IT.
ITS DONE.
DONE.
DONE.
"FINISHED".

A person is saved, because God has recreated them by New Birth, using the power of the Holy Spirit to regenerate them, INTO, His family.
So, the same thing that GOT YOU THERE, (GOD) IS THE ONLY THING THAT CAN KEEP YOU THERE. (GOD)
"God who began a good work in you (SALVATION) will be faithful to COMPLETE IT"""
THAT IS NOT YOU !!!!
HE DOES IT.
SALVATION, GRACE, BEING BORN AGAIN, IS A PERMANENT SITUATION, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.
GOD DID IT FOR YOU, AND HE GETS THE CREDIT.
NOT YOU.
SO, OUT GO YOUR WORKS, YOUR ENDURING, AND ALL THE NONSENSE YOU CAN WRITE ABOUT IT, by twisting Paul's theology to fit your heresy.

Once you are saved, THEN ITS DONE..... because you have ONCE Believed, and then you are become the property of God by NEW Birth.
"born again".
You are "bought with a price", and that price is the sacrifice of Jesus, and this has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.
AND NEVER WILL.
And you cant undo this, JLB.....no matter how much you obsess on trying to figure out a way, by kicking this dead HERETICAL horse all over Christian forums, instead of doing something worthwhile.
YOU'RE wasting your time, and you do it all the time.
Its a dead end, Its a useless pursuit, its fruitless, and its harmful to others here and anywhere else you preach Galatians 1:8, and you really need to find something else to be fanatical about, as all you are doing over and over and over is proving that you are a Galatians 1:8 with a vengeance....
You have this very queer and very heretical idea that because you can cut and paste 765 verses written by Paul, that you are actually preaching what he preached, YET, you actually are in total opposition to Grace.
Total.



<K><

 

[Papa Zoom]

[QUOTE="JLB, post: 1434644, member: 2772"

How many believe that a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, in which they depart from faith in Him, and turn to the antichrist, or Allah, or some other god, and confess him as Lord and Savior, and still be saved on the Day of Judgement, when Christ returns?
JLB-

Faith does not save you.
So, if you are trusting in your Faith, or pursuing this as your means to get yourself into heaven, then you ARE NOT TRUSTING IN CHRIST AS "THE WAY", AND IN FACT you are as lost as a monkey in a mall, come judgement day.

Faith, is the MEANS, whereby God saved you.

Let me give you a simple analogy.

Have you ever pumped gas into your car?
Ok, think of it like this..
The Gas in the Pump, is Salvation, is God's grace....and YOU are the empty tank, that's lost, hell bound, and unregenerated.
The HOSE, is FAITH.
The HOSE< is the device that connects, the gas to the tank, and once its in the tank then its FULL.
Full = born again.
Done deal.
Now, you as the full tank, are as full of JESUS and GOD as you are going to get., and you are "SEALED" this way, by the Holy Spirit.
You didnt do any of that...and you cant undo it......All you can do is ither behave as you should, or behave as you should not, but you are not able to change what is in your TANK.
Now, you think on that, for a while....JLB


See, God saved you using Christ's blood to forgive you, and in doing so, God also gives you His very righteousness as "the gift of righteousness".
Salvation, is not deeds you do after you are saved, as so many can't seem to understand.
Salvation is what HAPPENED TO YOU, THAT GOD DID FOR YOU, AND THAT IS NOT CONNECTED TO YOUR BEHAVIOR AFTER HE DOES IT.
ITS DONE.
DONE.
DONE.
"FINISHED".

A person is saved, because God has recreated them by New Birth, using the power of the Holy Spirit to regenerate them, INTO, His family.
So, the same thing that GOT YOU THERE, (GOD) IS THE ONLY THING THAT CAN KEEP YOU THERE. (GOD)
AND HE DOES.
SALVATION, GRACE, BEING BORN AGAIN, IS A PERMANENT SITUATION, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.
GOD DID IT FOR YOU, AND HE GETS THE CREDIT.
NOT YOU.
SO, OUT GO YOUR WORKS, YOUR ENDURING, AND ALL THE NONSENSE YOU CAN WRITE ABOUT IT, by twisting Paul's theology to fit your heresy.

Once you are saved, THEN ITS DONE..... because you have ONCE Believed, and then you are become the property of God by NEW Birth.
"born again".
You are "bought with a price", and that price is the sacrifice of Jesus, and this has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.
AND NEVER WILL.
And you cant undo this, JLB.....no matter how much you obsess on trying to figure out a way, by kicking this dead HERETICAL horse all over Christian forums, instead of doing something worthwhile.
YOU'RE wasting your time, and you do it all the time.
Its a dead end, Its a useless pursuit, its fruitless, and its harmful to others here and anywhere else you preach Galatians 1:8, and you really need to find something else to be fanatical about, as all you are doing over and over and over is proving that you are a Galatians 1:8 with a vengeance....
You have this very queer and very heretical idea that because you can cut and paste 765 verses written by Paul, that you are actually preaching what he preached, YET, you actually are in total opposition to Grace.
Total.



<K><

It's a problem when we include things like "your heresy" then a mod needs to act as it will lead to problems. I agree BTW with your post but for the personal stuff. Address only the issue (which in my view you have done well).

It's your view that it's heretical (OSNAS) and that's fine to post. I prefer (and so does the TOS) that we steer away from assigning labels to others. So can you fix that please?

And I post this as plea (see, not a warning but a plea) that we address only the issue before us and not assign motive or blame or labels or whatever to others who hold to a different view.

PLEEEEZE PEEOPLES! ;)

 

[Papa Zoom]

And just so you know, I do come with backup
My boys and one knucklehead and one very serious lady!

 

[civilwarbuff]

And just so you know, I do have back up.

My boys

https://imgur.com/xoogBWX

https://imgur.com/3XzItK7

https://imgur.com/75lXijH

https://imgur.com/s67WpaE

https://imgur.com/AKl9bdc

https://imgur.com/iA9BiFW
https://imgur.com/EjoSQwH

LIKE

 

[Papa Zoom]

LIKE

I fixed it a tad

 

[FreeGrace]

If you think that someone can never depart from the faith, then please explain why Paul would state this in scripture.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1
JLB

I had explained this:
"I take his statement of "depart from the faith" to mean leave his saved state, not to cease believing. If he believes that, I disagree."

What part of this isn't clear?

 

[FreeGrace]

Can you show a scripture that says it’s impossible to become un-born again.
JLB

Since it's not physically possible to be unborn, why would it be possible to be unborn spiritually?

There's no logic to your question. The fact is: there are no verses that even suggest that one can be unborn, much less that they can be unborn.

Your theory is full of assumptions and presumptions.

 

[FreeGrace]

Quoting someone else’s opinion in the face of scripture doesn’t help your cause.

Speaking of what helps one's cause, it is clearly stated Scripture that helps the most. Which of course your theory has none.

If not for assumptions and presumptions, your theory would have nothing.

 

[FreeGrace]

First, show me the scripture that says it’s impossible for a person to be
un-born again, since that was your claim.


JLB

Yet the opposite cannot be proven from Scripture either. So what's the point?

 

[New Day Coming]

To the question, a question...

Would a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. John 3:36 NIV


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36



21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

• if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

• we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Based on the above mentioned scriptures -

How many believe that a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, in which they depart from faith in Him, and turn to the antichrist, or Allah, or some other god, and confess him as Lord and Savior, and still be saved on the Day of Judgement, when Christ returns?







JLB

No, you cannot lose your salvation.
Hebrews 3:14 clarifies that with the word "if".

 

[FreeGrace]

No, you cannot lose your salvation.
Hebrews 3:14 clarifies that with the word "if".

Amen!

And John 10:28 states it as plainly as possible, and there are no conditions placed on recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

Simply being a recipient of eternal life means they shall never perish. Jesus said so.

 

[MCoop]

that in the latter times some should depart from the faith; that is, from the doctrine of faith, notwithstanding it is indisputably the great mystery of godliness, as it is called in the latter part of the preceding chapter; for from the true grace of faith there can be no final and total apostasy, such as is here designed; for that can never be lost. It is of an incorruptible nature, and therefore more precious than gold that perishes; Christ is the author and finisher of it; his prevalent mediation is concerned for it; it is a gift of special grace, and is without repentance; it springs from electing grace, and is secured by it; and between that and salvation there is an inseparable connection; it may indeed decline, be very low, and lie dormant, as to its acts and exercise, but not be lost: there is a temporary faith, and a persuasion of truth, or a mere assent to it, which may be departed from, but not that faith which works by love: here it intends a profession of faith, which being made, should be dropped by some; or rather the doctrine of faith, which some would embrace, and then err concerning, or entirely quit, and wholly apostatize from. And they are said to be some, and these many, as they are elsewhere represented, though not all; for the elect cannot be finally and totally deceived; the foundation of election stands sure amidst the greatest apostasy; and there are always a few names that are not defiled with corrupt principles and practices; Christ always had some witnesses for the truth in the darkest times: and now this defection was to be "in the latter times"; either of the apostolic age, which John, the last of the apostles, lived to see; and therefore he calls it the last time, or hour, in which were many antichrists, 1Jn_2:18. And indeed in the Apostle Paul's time the mystery of iniquity began to work, which brought on this general defection; though here it has regard to some later times under the Gospel dispensation; to the time when the man of sin, and the son of perdition, was revealed, and when all the world wondered after the beast: and indeed, such will be the degeneracy in the last days of all, that when the son of man comes, as the grace, so the doctrine of faith will be scarcely to be found in the world: the means by which this apostasy will obtain and prevail will be through men's
John Gill's Exposition

Great post civilwarbluff

 

[for_his_glory]

"Conjunctions" nuff said ................. "the wheels on the bus go round and round".................... OH, "if" is one of thum thar conjunction thingy ain't it!!!.................... Yes, no

 

[JLB]

No. Because you aren't born again if you ever reject Jesus as Lord and Savior. You were a tare among the wheat. A goat among the sheep. You were a fake.

At what point does a person become born again?

When they believe the Gospel?

When they are baptized?

I believe most of you OSAS folks claim it is when you believe, however, you may have a different point of view that the others.



JLB