Forum Poll

[Papa Zoom]

So how is this assurance of salvation? Even the most dedicated believer could potentially find out under time of severe diress that they too were only a false believer.

This position of mine: " I don't believe a spirit filled, regenerated, born from above believer would reject Jesus ever. I believe a false believer, one who claimed to believe but really didn't, would act the part but walk away because they never were among us (believers). Many people have a very shallow belief. It's weak. It's not authentic. Those people aren't believers but they look as if they are." is specifically addressing the idea of a bona fide Christian walking away from faith and living a life of sin. I don't see how that's possible when the Spirit of the Living God is at work within the heart of the believer.

The Bible is full of examples of tares and wheat, goats and sheep. A person will know they are saved if they are abiding in Christ. It's the Spirit's work to communicate the truth of our salvation. And we can know that we are saved 1 John 5:13.

 

[Maria E Abreu]

And I don't believe a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved because I don't believe a spirit filled, regenerated, born from above believer would reject Jesus ever.

Yes sir, I got that the first time you said it.


Here is the poll question.

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved.


You answered yes.


My question was Why do you believe a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved?


What would prevent a born again Christian from rejecting Jesus Christ and turning to the antichrist and taking his mark, during the tribulation that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24, that is also mentioned in Revelation 14.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12


From what I read here and in Matthew 24, the admonition to endure and resist taking the mark and worshiping the antichrist is to Christians.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), Matthew 24:9-15


Why would Jesus give this admonition to Christians, if as you imply, it is impossible for a born again Christian to reject Jesus, and take the mark and worship the antichrist?




ME

 

[Papa Zoom]

Yes sir, I got that the first time you said it.


Here is the poll question.

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved.


You answered yes.


My question was Why do you believe a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved?


What would prevent a born again Christian from rejecting Jesus Christ and turning to the antichrist and taking his mark, during the tribulation that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24, that is also mentioned in Revelation 14.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12


From what I read here and in Matthew 24, the admonition to endure and resist taking the mark and worshiping the antichrist is to Christians.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), Matthew 24:9-15


Why would Jesus give this admonition to Christians, if as you imply, it is impossible for a born again Christian to reject Jesus, and take the mark and worship the antichrist?




ME

I’ve answered this

 

[Maria E Abreu]

I’m pretty sure The Son was and is aware of antichrist worship going on then, now and in the last day. Yet He had no problem making the Truth claims about Jesus lovers that He did:

If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. And My Father will love him. And We will come to him. And We will make a place-to-stay with him.John 14:23
I noticed Rev 14:9-12 doesn’t say anything about a Christ lover (a saint) rejecting Christ and worshipping antichrist. Quite the opposite is stated. And it even tells us why that’s the case. To GOD be all glory.

Of course it does.

If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God...

I believe "anyone" refers to anyone.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12


I believe that the Lord sent His angel to warn those who are saved and born again, about worshiping the beast and taking his mark, since verse 12 says, "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."


Do you believe saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ refers to born again Christians?




ME

 

[chessman]

I believe "anyone" refers to anyone.

Correct. Do you believe it refers to dogs and cats??? (Rhetorical question)

My point is, obviously context matters and certain assumptions (or hermeneutic methods) must be employed. We assume cats and dogs are not in context.

But that’s just it, “anyone” does NOT mean Christ lovers specifically. It means the ones sitting on the earth— indeed, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people (v6).

My point was and still is, it doesn’t specifically say anything about Christ lovers rejecting Christ. It’s an assumption, at best, that there are Christ lovers taking the mark and worshiping antichrist at this time. And frankly not a very good assumption, given the Text specifically says those saints following Him have “Jesus’s faith”. It’s a degrading of His faith (not ours) to assume somone in possession of His faith will worship antichrist, IMO.

I believe that the Lord sent His angel to warn those who are saved and born again, about worshiping the beast and taking his mark, since verse 12 says, "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

You realize John’s vision here is visionary of the future, right? Or are you are full prederist?
John was visioning angels appearing in mid-heaven (i.e. the sky). It hasn’t happened yet.

Do you believe saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ refers to born again Christians?

Yes. Specifically those few (relatively speaking) living on Earth in the day Jesus returns and they meet Him literally upon His arrival without seeing death. i.e. Those saints who were “bought” from among the population of the Earth (the anyone) living on the last day.

And they are singing something like a new song before the throne and before the four living-creatures and the elders. And no one was able to learn the song except the one-hundred forty four thousand, the ones having been bought from the earth. These are ones who were not stained with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones following the Lamb wherever He goes. These were bought from mankind to be the firstfruit to God and to the Lamb. And falsehood was not found in their mouth. They are without-blemish.​

Revelation 14:3-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:3-5&version=DLNT

 

[gr8grace3]

This position of mine: " I don't believe a spirit filled, regenerated, born from above believer would reject Jesus ever. I believe a false believer, one who claimed to believe but really didn't, would act the part but walk away because they never were among us (believers). Many people have a very shallow belief. It's weak. It's not authentic. Those people aren't believers but they look as if they are." is specifically addressing the idea of a bona fide Christian walking away from faith and living a life of sin. I don't see how that's possible when the Spirit of the Living God is at work within the heart of the believer.

The Bible is full of examples of tares and wheat, goats and sheep. A person will know they are saved if they are abiding in Christ. It's the Spirit's work to communicate the truth of our salvation. And we can know that we are saved 1 John 5:13.

In My neck of the woods, religion rules the roost.
Someone gets saved and they are instantly inundated with," OK. Now you have to____________ and now you can't______________." And that new believer is overwhelmed with rules, the morality they now MUST follow and working for Jesus. And very soon the line's become blurred and they are off on "working" for their salvation.

So, where I am from it is not believers rejecting The Lord outright and going back into sin. It's believers who have been indoctrinated by "thou shalt and thou shalt not" for their salvation.

It is a subtle rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is replaced by their fruits and works.

From my studies it is quenching the Spirit. Not," They were not really saved." 1 Thess 5:19.

 

[Maria E Abreu]

Correct. Do you believe it refers to dogs and cats??? (Rhetorical question)

My point is, obviously context matters and certain assumptions (or hermeneutic methods) must be employed. We assume cats and dogs are not in context.

This has nothing to do with the word "anyone" found in the passage from Revelation 14.

Edited by staff

But that’s just it, “anyone” does NOT mean Christ lovers specifically. It means the ones sitting on the earth— indeed, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people (v6).

Anyone refers to anyone.


Do you honestly believe a Christian is exempt from this word, "anyone", found in the book of Revelation which was written by the Apostle John to the Churches?


Edited by staff

You realize John’s vision here is visionary of the future, right? Or are you are full prederist?
John was visioning angels appearing in mid-heaven (i.e. the sky). It hasn’t happened yet.

I don't really understand what you mean by this?


It seems like you are more interested in distracting from what we are discussing, which is the passage from Revelation 14.


Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,


Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.


You would have to able to prove that "anyone" doesn't include saints, and that "saints" doesn't include born again Christians, to come to the conclusion that the Lord isn't warning born again Christians that if they take the mark of the beast and worship him, they won't suffer the fate of being cast into the lake of fire.

Yes. Specifically those few (relatively speaking) living on Earth in the day Jesus returns and they meet Him literally upon His arrival without seeing death. i.e. Those saints who were “bought” from among the population of the Earth (the anyone) living on the last day.

And they are singing something like a new song before the throne and before the four living-creatures and the elders. And no one was able to learn the song except the one-hundred forty four thousand, the ones having been bought from the earth. These are ones who were not stained with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones following the Lamb wherever He goes. These were bought from mankind to be the firstfruit to God and to the Lamb. And falsehood was not found in their mouth. They are without-blemish.Revelation 14:3-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:3-5&version=DLNT

How does this prove that "anyone" doesn't include saints?





ME

 

[WIP]

Why would Jesus give this admonition to Christians, if as you imply, it is impossible for a born again Christian to reject Jesus, and take the mark and worship the antichrist?

This is a good question that I would like answered as well.

Sometimes it does seem that some will answer saying that the rewards will be affected but then I don't understand how that would matter if we would be completely content with whatever position we have in Heaven. In other words, unless I can feel remorse for not achieving a certain reward or level, rewards have no value and so what if my reward is less so long as I am in heaven where there will be no more sorrow nor tears nor pain, etc.

 

[gr8grace3]

This position of mine: " I don't believe a spirit filled, regenerated, born from above believer would reject Jesus ever.

The book of Job comes to mind. He was successful. Do believe all of us would have been? If someone failed and rejected(cursed) God.........they really were not saved?

I honestly don't think I would have made it. I would have buckled.

And if I put myself in a born-again believers position in WWII. Having my family killed right before my eyes, taken off to a death camp to suffer and witness suffering.
A 17 year old Christian soldier that had half of his platoon ripped in half right before his eyes.

I would have a hard time saying they were not really saved, if they rejected the Lord after that kind of trauma. I would like to say I wouldn't curse God, but I have never been tested like that.

 

[Papa Zoom]

In My neck of the woods, religion rules the roost.
Someone gets saved and they are instantly inundated with," OK. Now you have to____________ and now you can't______________." And that new believer is overwhelmed with rules, the morality they now MUST follow and working for Jesus. And very soon the line's become blurred and they are off on "working" for their salvation.

So, where I am from it is not believers rejecting The Lord outright and going back into sin. It's believers who have been indoctrinated by "thou shalt and thou shalt not" for their salvation.

It is a subtle rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is replaced by their fruits and works.

From my studies it is quenching the Spirit. Not," They were not really saved." 1 Thess 5:19.

That pretty much sums up my upbringing.

 

[GodsGrace]

But why didn't he tell BELIEVE IN ME ( to be saved) to the rich and the Expert of law (Mark 10: 17)( Luke 10: 2-16:17)--- if all it took to getting saved was BELEVING. was Christ incorrect in saying when and what he said to these above two gentlemen?

This is an excellent point, BTW.
Jesus never said to JUST believe in Him.
He always said what we were TO DO to be saved.

What many don't understand is that Jesus' mission was to save us yes, but also to set up the Kingdom of God here on earth.
Mathew 4:17 Jesus meant NOW.

To be a part of this Kingdom, Jesus taught us how we are to behave and make this world a better place. His vision was to have a Kingdom on earth.
John 3:3,5

He spoke just a few times about salvation, but He spoke many times (over 100)
about the Kingdom of God - what it is, how to be a part of it.

So yes, Jesus never said to just believe in Him. It's written one time in the N.T. (by Him) but we also have to realize that believe means to obey. And yet, even though Jesus knew this, He only said it one time without the conditions.

 

[gr8grace3]

Jesus never said to JUST believe in Him.
He always said what we were TO DO to be saved.

John 6:47 ~~“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.”

John 11:25-26 ~~Jesus said to her [Martha], “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.”

John 3:18 ~~He who believes in Him [Christ] is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 16:8-9 ~~“And He [Holy Spirit], when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me”

John 6:40~~For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

 

[Jim Parker]

John 6:47 ~~“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.”

John 11:25-26 ~~Jesus said to her [Martha], “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.”

John 3:18 ~~He who believes in Him [Christ] is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 16:8-9 ~~“And He [Holy Spirit], when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me”

John 6:40~~For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Sigh
How regularly we are given only those "proof texts" that appear to support the "faith without works" dogma and the rest of the Word which applies directly to the issue is ignored for the sake of "what our church teaches."
Jesus said: “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say? " (Luk 6:46)
Jesus also said: “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (Jhn 14:15)
And: “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me."(Jhn 14:21)

And Paul told us: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)
And James, the brother of the Lord, told us: "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (Jas 2:24)

Concerning who will receive eternal life, Jesus said: "...the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (Jhn 5:28-29)

And when Jesus described the judgment of mankind he summarized it thusly: “And these (the people who did not do acts of mercy) will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous (the people who did acts of mercy) into eternal life.” (Mat 25:46)

We need to bring what you have posted and what I have posted to bear in our lives.

that's all....


iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

John 6:47 ~~“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.”look

John 11:25-26 ~~Jesus said to her [Martha], “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.”

John 3:18 ~~He who believes in Him [Christ] is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 16:8-9 ~~“And He [Holy Spirit], when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me”

John 6:40~~For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

What does it mean to believe?
John 6:28-29 is the scripture where Jesus was asked what had to be done to do the works necessary and He replied to believe in Him.

But believe meant to obey.
If we are to obey Jesus, it simply means to do as He taught.
Faith means to trust one enough to depend on them and follow them.

All of the scriptures you posted do not mention salvation per se because Jesus knew that to be saved one has to obey God.

You've stated that you believe this.
The faith only movement does not.

 

[chessman]

This has nothing to do with the word "anyone" found in the passage from Revelation 14.

Yes it does. My point is that you and I both exclude any one dog or any one cat from this inclusion. And rightly so. Why??? Because the context shows that the angels are making an announcement to, and I quote;
“to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,”. i.e. “anyone”.

Notice, however, for saints it’s good news.

You don't seem to be very honest about what we are discussing.

Why? What have I said that’s dishonest?

Because I’ve pointed out that the word “anyone” does NOT mean saints or Christ lovers (or cats)??? Can you point out any dictionary that says “anyone” means saints?

Anyone refers to anyone.

Correct. “Every nation, tribe, or tongue”. To the saints (Christ lovers) it is “good-news”, not a ‘warning’, BTW.

You will not need to be a Jew to here this announcement, when it occurs.

Do you honestly believe a Christian is exempt from this word, "anyone", found in the book of Revelation which was written by the Apostle John to the Churches?

No. Nor did I say I did. Do you honestly believe “anyone” means saints? If so, post a dictionary or lexicon that shows this word means saints and I’ll correct my belief.

Again, you don't seem to be very honest about what we are discussing.

Again, why?

I don't really understand what you mean by this?

I mean “John’s vision here is visionary of the future”.

t seems like you are more interested in distracting from what we are discussing, which is the passage from Revelation 14.

Incorrect.

You would have to able to prove that "anyone" doesn't include saints, and that "saints" doesn't include born again Christians, to come to the conclusion that the Lord isn't warning born again Christians that if they take the mark of the beast and worship him, they won't suffer the fate of being cast into the lake of fire.

Why??? I’ve made no claim that “anyone” doesn’t include any one person.

Can you underline where says this passage is a “warning”? To prove that it is a warning you’d need to show it is a warning.

Honestly, to me it’s good-news. Eternal good-news, if fact.

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having eternal good-news to announce-as-good-news to the ones sitting on the earth— indeed, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,​

Revelation 14:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:6&version=DLNT

Is the angels announcement a ‘warning’ to you?

How does this prove that "anyone" doesn't include saints?

Again, honestly, I never said it didn’t include saints. How does your claiming the announcement prove it’s a warning, when the Text literally calls it “eternal good news”?

What I have said, and you’re not addressing, is Scripture that proves someone possessing the faith of Jesus could ever reject Jesus.

 

[gr8grace3]

Sigh
How regularly we are given only those "proof texts" that appear to support the "faith without works" dogma and the rest of the Word which applies directly to the issue is ignored for the sake of "what our church teaches."
Jesus said: “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say? " (Luk 6:46)
Jesus also said: “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (Jhn 14:15)
And: “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me."(Jhn 14:21)

And Paul told us: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)
And James, the brother of the Lord, told us: "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."(Jas 2:24)

Concerning who will receive eternal life, Jesus said: "...the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (Jhn 5:28-29)

And when Jesus described the judgment of mankind he summarized it thusly: “And these (the people who did not do acts of mercy) will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous (the people who did acts of mercy) into eternal life.” (Mat 25:46)

We need to bring what you have posted and what I have posted to bear in our lives.

that's all....


iakov the fool

SIGH.



How often do we have to see service/maturity scripture used to PIT against salvation verses? No wonder unbelievers have a great case about CONTRADICTIONS in His word. Workers for can't discern service and salvation verses.

John 6:47 ~~“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.”>>>>>>>Salvation.

“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me."(Jhn 14:21)>>>>>>>Service.

Don't pit scripture against scripture.

 

[gr8grace3]

What does it mean to believe?

To look at ones self, recognize that we are a sinner and we need salvation.And NOTHING we do can save us.

The Gospel comes along and is made clear at some point.............And we trust in the work and person of Christ ALONE for our salvation.(Remember, He was sinless and perfect. He was hung naked on a cross, with spikes through his hands and feet, a crown of thorns pushed down on his scalp, His beard plucked from his face, spit on,mocked,back and chest split wide open and muscles pulsating and pumping blood to the open air and FORSAKEN by His Father!) ..........And we want to add just a tid bit to His work?

That is belief. It is belief that has no human works involved. We didn't help Christ along with my 'feeling bad' or 'sorry.' We dropped to our knees and put it ALL on Him. Trust in His work alone and His Person alone is what saves........Not," I felt sorry for my sins AND believe in you."

Belief is the tax collector beating his chest and wouldn't even look up to heaven. And asking Him to have mercy. We have nothing to offer Him..... We accept what He has offered us.

That is belief.

Not some pseudo belief like ," I believe on you and I will help you out with works,obedience,morality,being sweet and quitting some sin. And I promise that I will do it, I will never forsake you! and I don't deserve to be saved if I fail!"

 

[dirtfarmer]

To look at ones self, recognize that we are a sinner and we need salvation.And NOTHING we do can save us.

The Gospel comes along and is made clear at some point.............And we trust in the work and person of Christ ALONE for our salvation.(Remember, He was sinless and perfect. He was hung naked on a cross, with spikes through his hands and feet, a crown of thorns pushed down on his scalp, His beard plucked from his face, spit on,mocked,back and chest split wide open and muscles pulsating and pumping blood to the open air and FORSAKEN by His Father!) ..........And we want to add just a tid bit to His work?

That is belief. It is belief that has no human works involved. We didn't help Christ along with my 'feeling bad' or 'sorry.' We dropped to our knees and put it ALL on Him. Trust in His work alone and His Person alone is what saves........Not," I felt sorry for my sins AND believe in you."

Belief is the tax collector beating his chest and wouldn't even look up to heaven. And asking Him to have mercy. We have nothing to offer Him..... We accept what He has offered us.

That is belief.

Not some pseudo belief like ," I believe on you and I will help you out with works,obedience,morality,being sweet and quitting some sin. And I promise that I will do it, I will never forsake you! and I don't deserve to be saved if I fail!"

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

AMEN!!!!!!

 

[Jim Parker]

SIGH.



How often do we have to see service/maturity scripture used to PIT against salvation verses? No wonder unbelievers have a great case about CONTRADICTIONS in His word. Workers for can't discern service and salvation verses.

John 6:47 ~~“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.”>>>>>>>Salvation.

“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me."(Jhn 14:21)>>>>>>>Service.

Don't pit scripture against scripture.

AH! When you only presented one side of the message, I thought that was what you were doing.
Oooops

 

[Maria E Abreu]

Yes it does. My point is that you and I both exclude any one dog or any one cat from this inclusion. And rightly so. Why??? Because the context shows that the angels are making an announcement to, and I quote;
“to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,”. i.e. “anyone”.

Notice, however, for saints it’s good news.

No I don't see anywhere in the scripture from Revelation 14:6-9


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12


Anyone, refers to anyone, which certainly includes born again Christians, saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ.

Why? What have I said that’s dishonest?

Because I’ve pointed out that the word “anyone” does NOT mean saints or Christ lovers (or cats)??? Can you point out any dictionary that says “anyone” means saints?

Because you are trying to include animals in the discussion about "anyone", which is a reference to people, in an effort to distract from the facts.


Anyone certainly includes anyone, which includes the saints.

Correct. “Every nation, tribe, or tongue”. To the saints (Christ lovers) it is “good-news”, not a ‘warning’, BTW.

You will not need to be a Jew to here this announcement, when it occurs.

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

How is this not a warning?

No. Nor did I say I did. Do you honestly believe “anyone” means saints? If so, post a dictionary or lexicon that shows this word means saints and I’ll correct my belief.

Of course anyone refers to anyone which includes saints.

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God,



So you believe that saints, born again Christians can worship the beast and take his mark, and still be saved?


I certainly don't, which is why I answered no to the poll.


I see you didn't participate in the poll.



Do you believe a born again Christian, a saint, can worship the beast and take his mark, and still be saved?




ME