Forum Poll

[Maria E Abreu]

This is a good question that I would like answered as well.

Sometimes it does seem that some will answer saying that the rewards will be affected but then I don't understand how that would matter if we would be completely content with whatever position we have in Heaven. In other words, unless I can feel remorse for not achieving a certain reward or level, rewards have no value and so what if my reward is less so long as I am in heaven where there will be no more sorrow nor tears nor pain, etc.

You seem to have an honest heart.


I never would have imagined that a Christian could ever believe that they could reject Jesus Christ and worship the beast, or antichrist and take his mark and still be saved.




ME

 

[dirtfarmer]

No I don't see anywhere in the scripture from Revelation 14:6-9


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12


Anyone, refers to anyone, which certainly includes born again Christians, saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ.




Because you are trying to include animals in the discussion about "anyone", which is a reference to people, in an effort to distract from the facts.


Anyone certainly includes anyone, which includes the saints.





Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

How is this not a warning?





Of course anyone refers to anyone which includes saints.

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God,



So you believe that saints, born again Christians can worship the beast and take his mark, and still be saved?


I certainly don't, which is why I answered no to the poll.


I see you didn't participate in the poll.



Do you believe a born again Christian, a saint, can worship the beast and take his mark, and still be saved?




ME

hello Maria E Abreu, dirtfarmer here

I am not trying to derail this thread, but is Revelation applicable to the "Church"? Revelation was written by John, was he not an apostle to the circumcision? Revelation is Jesus taking back the "title deed" to the world that Adam lost to the serpent in Genesis. The "Church" will have been raptured and 144,000 Jews will become the kingdom of priest that will preach the gospel to every nation.

As to the question that has been asked; NO, Christians will not be present on earth to receive that mark of the beast, but will be with Christ as co-heirs with him.

As I have stated before, "The question is an oxymoron.

 

[chessman]

Searching out to examine what is required after a person is born again, is what I believe we are discussing.

Then why are you even discussing Rev 14:9 that says nothing whatsoever about what is “required after a person is born again”?

Bible believers know what’s required after a person is born again. “He will be saved”!

I am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. And he will go in and go out, and he will find pasture.​

John 10:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 10:9&version=DLNT

Simple.

It’s already been announced to us born again people by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Which is why the prophecy of the announcement to the world visioned in Rev 14:9 is “good-news”.

Born again people are rejoicing right now specifically because we have received the salvation of our souls. It’s just a matter of time and fullfiled prophecy as to when we all will receive our glorified bodies to go with our saved souls:

... Whom not having seen, you are loving; in Whom— right-now not seeing Him, but believing— you are rejoicing-greatly with inexpressible and glorified joy while receiving the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls, to whom it was revealed that they were ministering them not for themselves, but for you,... which things now were declared to you through the ones having announced-the-good-news-to you by the Holy Spirit having been sent-forth from heaven, into which things angels desire to look.​

1 Peter 1:8-9,12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Peter 1:8-9,12&version=DLNT

It’s already been announced to us. And will be announced again to the world on the last day.

Because you are trying to include animals in the discussion about "anyone", which is a reference to people, in an effort to distract from the facts.

The fact is the word “anyone” doesn’t specifically mean saints or Christ lovers anymore than it means any one specific animal.

Let me try a different analogy of my point with a simple question:
Do you believe the “anyone” of Rev 14:9 includes Jesus within it’s scope?

How is this not a warning?

Besides the fact that it doesn’t say “this is a warning”, the context shows it to be “good-news” to the saints living on the last day. (Asked and answered already)

Anyone, refers to anyone, which certainly includes born again Christians, saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ.

Does it include Jesus, in your opinion, since He has kept the commandments better than “anyone” I know?

p.s. Once again, I never said “anyone” doesn’t mean any person.

So you believe that saints, born again Christians can worship the beast and take his mark, and still be saved?

I do not believe that saints, born again Christians, have or will ever worship The Beast.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit can worship The Beast?

 

[Maria E Abreu]

Then why are you even discussing Rev 14:9 that says nothing whatsoever about what is “required after a person is born again”?

Because that is the subject of this thread.

How many believe that a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, in which they depart from faith in Him, and turn to the antichrist, or Allah, or some other god, and confess him as Lord and Savior, and still be saved on the Day of Judgement, when Christ returns?

To me, this subject is very relevant for the Church, as we draw near to the end of the age, with the signs Jesus gave us to be aware of, just before His return.


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12


Verse 12 is an admonition for the saints to endure, and keep the faith, and not take the mark or worship the beast.


Jesus Himself also gave instructions about this time to His disciples in Matthew 24.


9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. Matthew 24:9-25


Jesus said those who endure to the end will be saved.


To me this tells me that there will be some Christians who do not endure to the end.

He also said, about this subject, that if it is possible for the elect to be deceived they will be.


For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.


For me, it's important to make sure my family and friends understand what is coming so that they won't be deceived.

Does it include Jesus, in your opinion, since He has kept the commandments better than “anyone” I know?

p.s. Once again, I never said “anyone” doesn’t mean any person.

Jesus has lived His life on earth and been found faithful to obey His Father to the end.


Why would you think Jesus would worship the antichrist, when the bible tells us He will destroy the antichrist?

I do not believe that saints, born again Christians, have or will ever worship The Beast.

Why not? The book of Revelation warns the saints of this very thing.



11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12


The saints must keep the faith during this time of temptation and tribulation, and not reject Him, in favor of serving the antichrist.


Keep faith is Jesus means just that. Don't lose your faith in Jesus.


Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.




ME

 

[Maria E Abreu]

hello Maria E Abreu, dirtfarmer here

I am not trying to derail this thread, but is Revelation applicable to the "Church"? Revelation was written by John, was he not an apostle to the circumcision? Revelation is Jesus taking back the "title deed" to the world that Adam lost to the serpent in Genesis. The "Church" will have been raptured and 144,000 Jews will become the kingdom of priest that will preach the gospel to every nation.

As to the question that has been asked; NO, Christians will not be present on earth to receive that mark of the beast, but will be with Christ as co-heirs with him.

As I have stated before, "The question is an oxymoron.

4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
Revelation 1:4-5


I always though that the Churches is Asia, were predominantly Gentile.





ME

 

[chessman]

Verse 12 is an admonition for the saints to endure, and keep the faith, and not take the mark or worship the beast.

No, nothing about a warning or admonition appears in the Text. It’s a trustworthy yet visionary prophecy of God blessed saints enduring and dying in the Lord so that they will rest from their labors. [exactly what eternal security believes]

Here is the endurance of the saints, the ones keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write— ‘Blessed are the dead dying in the Lord from-now- on! Yes, says the Spirit, so that they will rest from their labors, for their works are following with them”.​

Revelation 14:12-13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:12-13&version=DLNT

Jesus said those who endure to the end will be saved.

And I believe Him.

To me this tells me that there will be some Christians who do not endure to the end.

If Jesus or His Holy Spirit inspired authors had said some (or for that matter all) born again Christians will not endure to the end and be saved, you’d have a point. Problem is, that’s not what this Text says.

He also said, about this subject, that if it is possible for the elect to be deceived they will be.

I’m sure that if it were possible for the anti-christ to deceive the elect and win the battle, he would. If it were possible for you to produce a Text showing the elect have been deceived, you would have.

Jesus has lived His life on earth and been found faithful to obey His Father to the end.

Bingo. And born again Christ lovers now have Christ living in us:

And I no longer am living, but Christ is living in me. And what I am now living in the flesh, I am living by faith in the Son of God— the One having loved me and handed Himself over for me.​

Galatians 2:20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Galatians 2:20&version=DLNT

And furthermore the very passage you brought up says have Jesus’s faith.

So does “anyone” in what you call a warning/admonition in Rev 14:9 include a warning to Christ living in us?

Why would you think Jesus would worship the antichrist, when the bible tells us He will destroy the antichrist?

I don’t. Nor did I say I did. I simply asked you if the “anyone” of Rev 14:9 includes Christ, in your opinion.

Why not? The book of Revelation warns the saints of this very thing.

No it doesn’t “warn the saints” or Christ living in them or dogs. You’re the one calling this passage a warning to saints , not the passage itself. Again, the Text literally calls this announcement “good-news” for a reason.

The saints must keep the faith during this time of temptation and tribulation, and not reject Him, in favor of serving the antichrist.

Yep. Otherwise Christ living in them is defeated. I reject that outcome.

Keep faith is Jesus means just that. Don't lose your faith in Jesus.

Where did you come up with ‘your faith’? Honestly, the Text literally calls it “the faith of Jesus”.

Here is the endurance of the saints, the ones keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.​

Revelation 14:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:12&version=DLNT

Saints keep what they have possession of, that is Jesus’s faith!

You didn’t answer

Do you believe the Holy Spirit can worship The Beast?

​

 

[dirtfarmer]

4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
Revelation 1:4-5


I always though that the Churches is Asia, were predominantly Gentile.





ME

hello Maria E Abreu, dirtfarmer here

John was an apostle to the circumcision, not to the uncircumcision, Gentiles.

Revelation 1:6, " And hath made us kings and priests unto our God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." This refers to Exodus 19:6 and was spoken to the nation of Israel, not to the body of Christ, His Church.

Where do you find that Paul ever said we are priest, priests, priesthood, or priestly from Romans to Philemon. In Paul's letters to the Gentiles, believers are not to be priest, but heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, to rule and reign with Him.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

This is an excellent point, BTW.
Jesus never said to JUST believe in Him.
He always said what we were TO DO to be saved.

What many don't understand is that Jesus' mission was to save us yes, but also to set up the Kingdom of God here on earth.
Mathew 4:17 Jesus meant NOW.

To be a part of this Kingdom, Jesus taught us how we are to behave and make this world a better place. His vision was to have a Kingdom on earth.
John 3:3,5

He spoke just a few times about salvation, but He spoke many times (over 100)
about the Kingdom of God - what it is, how to be a part of it.

So yes, Jesus never said to just believe in Him. It's written one time in the N.T. (by Him) but we also have to realize that believe means to obey. And yet, even though Jesus knew this, He only said it one time without the conditions.

so yes, Jesus never said to just believe in Him. It's written one time in the N.T. (by Him) but we also have to realize that believe means to obey

Daer sister wondering , you explained well that believe means to obey
To support that view I quote the following
Romans 8: 12-13
" Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."
Apostle Paul appears to be issuing a stern warning against sinning here, suggesting that it will lead to condemnation( "you will die")--- and in the same breath he exhorts us, believers, to live by the Spirit if we wish to live ( be saved)
I also find it rather interesting when he reminds us we were slaves to sin but now-----as believers ---- we are slaves to righteousness.

Romans 6:15-16
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Paul rounds off the Chapter with a grim reminder of the deathly consequence of sin.
Roman 6: 22-23
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Did you see Paul's emphasis on the fact that we believers are SLAVES of God? That menas we do NOT have the option to sin. It's another matter that yet we sin . At least I do -- but typically after losing a hard-fought battle. I don't allow myself easy sinning
Friends, I fight with my ownself every single day to combat all the sinfulness that is within me. I win sometimes , and sometimes I lose. And when i lose, it causes deep brokenness which testifies to the truth of Paul's words ( wages of sin is death---- Jesus died for us for that very reason.
So this begs the question, do we, as believers, have the freedom to sin, because we are covered by the blood of Christ? And if understanding the deep deep devastation that Sin causes, what happens to the man who willfully sins and elects to live in sin, believing that he will yet be saved---- no matter what? To me, it's like deceiving one's ownself . I fully understand that my flesh will not let me live in peace all my life--- until my last breath. It has its constant cravings to sin and satisfy itself ( at the expense of my soul!). And the world and the enemy also tempts me daily. That is the reason I HATE my life (my flesh really) and I eagerly look forward to either of the two : the return OF the Messiah OR return TO the messiah.....my death
John 12: 25-26
Jesus : "Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
If anyone ( Christian) serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, my servant will be as well."

Why did Jesus say whoever loves his life will lose it ( condemnation), while those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life ( salvation)?
this is how I interprete it - Whoever loves his (SINFUL) life will lose it, but whoever hates his (SINFUL) life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

 

[chessman]

suggesting that it will lead to condemnation( "you will die")

What makes you think he’s talking about condemnation versus what he said “you will die”?

and in the same breath he exhorts us, believers, to live by the Spirit if we wish to live ( be saved)

What makes you think he’s talking about salvation versus what he said “to live”?

Isn’t he talking about life and death of the body here?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

What makes you think he’s talking about condemnation versus what he said “you will die”?


What makes you think he’s talking about salvation versus what he said “to live”?

Isn’t he talking about life and death of the body here?

You will live would then mean body becoming immortal ?
I often avoid reading commentaries . But I do like famous Bible commentator Matthew Henry on the above verses.
"If the Spirit be in us, Christ is in us. He dwells in the heart by faith. Grace in the soul is its new nature; the soul is alive to God, and has begun its holy happiness which shall endure for ever. The righteousness of Christ imputed, secures the soul, the better part, from death. From hence we see how much it is our duty to walk, not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. If any habitually live according to corrupt lustings, they will certainly perish in their sins, whatever they profess"
i believe Henry concurs with what I posted and he is clearly talking about soul, and not body as you interpret brother

 

[chessman]

You will live would then mean body becoming immortal ?

No. It means what it says, not something else. You will live.

I asked you straightforward questions about your re-interpretation of what the passage you posted says. Is this your answers?

And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.​

Romans 8:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 8:10&version=DLNT

The reason fleshy bodies of Christians die is “because” of sin.

Paul didn’t have an immortal body nor was he telling the Roman Christians they had one either in the verses you posted.

p.s. My reason for asking you the questions I did was straightforward. I’d like to know your reasoning/justification for thinking Paul was talking to brothers about salvation and de-salvation (condemnation of a brother) within these verses or their context rather than the death of their bodies due to sin (which is the context). Are you going to answer my questions?

 

[chessman]

MH says:

the soul is alive to God, and has begun its holy happiness which shall endure for ever.

i believe Henry concurs with what I posted

So you believe the soul of a brother in Christ endures forever in Christ? Me too. Whether he sins a little or a lot.

Do you believe the body of a brother in Christ endures forever, whether he sins a little or a lot?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

No. It means what it says, not something else. You will live.

I asked you straightforward questions about your re-interpretation of what the passage you posted says. Is this your answers?

And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.​

Romans 8:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 8:10&version=DLNT

The reason fleshy bodies of Christians die is “because” of sin.

Paul didn’t have an immortal body nor was he telling the Roman Christians they had one either in the verses you posted.

p.s. My reason for asking you the questions I did was straightforward. I’d like to know your reasoning/justification for thinking Paul was talking to brothers about salvation and de-salvation (condemnation of a brother) within these verses or their context rather than the death of their bodies due to sin (which is the context). Are you going to answer my questions?

I'd definitely like to answer but taking some rest. Around 3 pm pst I will reply. God bless all

 

[GodsGrace]

To look at ones self, recognize that we are a sinner and we need salvation.And NOTHING we do can save us.

The Gospel comes along and is made clear at some point.............And we trust in the work and person of Christ ALONE for our salvation.(Remember, He was sinless and perfect. He was hung naked on a cross, with spikes through his hands and feet, a crown of thorns pushed down on his scalp, His beard plucked from his face, spit on,mocked,back and chest split wide open and muscles pulsating and pumping blood to the open air and FORSAKEN by His Father!) ..........And we want to add just a tid bit to His work?

That is belief. It is belief that has no human works involved. We didn't help Christ along with my 'feeling bad' or 'sorry.' We dropped to our knees and put it ALL on Him. Trust in His work alone and His Person alone is what saves........Not," I felt sorry for my sins AND believe in you."

Belief is the tax collector beating his chest and wouldn't even look up to heaven. And asking Him to have mercy. We have nothing to offer Him..... We accept what He has offered us.

That is belief.

Not some pseudo belief like ," I believe on you and I will help you out with works,obedience,morality,being sweet and quitting some sin. And I promise that I will do it, I will never forsake you! and I don't deserve to be saved if I fail!"

For you and dirtfarmer

This is not what believe means. It means something specifically related to the bible, how Jesus spoke and how it was meant in those days.

Here's what it means. You'll find that believe is an action verb, it means to obey:

Believe means

trust the person
learn from the person
obey the person
agree with the person
do what the person teaches
use them as an example
follow them in all ways

You won't find this anywhere on Google. It's from theology. THIS IS WHAT BELIEVE MEANS IN THE GREEK.

If I believe in Jesus, then I MUST DO EVERYTHING HE SAID TO DO.

I DO NOT have the right to think that I don't have to.
You see?
That one word makes all the difference.

So, let's BELIEVE Jesus, and do what He instructed us to do.​

 

[Christ_empowered]

I'm with wondering. I'm not a glutton for punishment or anything, but I do think following Christ involves dedication, obedience, and there are costs involved, too. Maybe we Protestants could learn alot from the RCC?

 

[GodsGrace]

Daer sister wondering , you explained well that believe means to obey
To support that view I quote the following
Romans 8: 12-13
" Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."
Apostle Paul appears to be issuing a stern warning against sinning here, suggesting that it will lead to condemnation( "you will die")--- and in the same breath he exhorts us, believers, to live by the Spirit if we wish to live ( be saved)
I also find it rather interesting when he reminds us we were slaves to sin but now-----as believers ---- we are slaves to righteousness.

Romans 6:15-16
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Paul rounds off the Chapter with a grim reminder of the deathly consequence of sin.
Roman 6: 22-23
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Did you see Paul's emphasis on the fact that we believers are SLAVES of God? That menas we do NOT have the option to sin. It's another matter that yet we sin . At least I do -- but typically after losing a hard-fought battle. I don't allow myself easy sinning
Friends, I fight with my ownself every single day to combat all the sinfulness that is within me. I win sometimes , and sometimes I lose. And when i lose, it causes deep brokenness which testifies to the truth of Paul's words ( wages of sin is death---- Jesus died for us for that very reason.
So this begs the question, do we, as believers, have the freedom to sin, because we are covered by the blood of Christ? And if understanding the deep deep devastation that Sin causes, what happens to the man who willfully sins and elects to live in sin, believing that he will yet be saved---- no matter what? To me, it's like deceiving one's ownself . I fully understand that my flesh will not let me live in peace all my life--- until my last breath. It has its constant cravings to sin and satisfy itself ( at the expense of my soul!). And the world and the enemy also tempts me daily. That is the reason I HATE my life (my flesh really) and I eagerly look forward to either of the two : the return OF the Messiah OR return TO the messiah.....my death
John 12: 25-26
Jesus : "Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
If anyone ( Christian) serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, my servant will be as well."

Why did Jesus say whoever loves his life will lose it ( condemnation), while those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life ( salvation)?
this is how I interprete it - Whoever loves his (SINFUL) life will lose it, but whoever hates his (SINFUL) life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

I would just add, for those who insist that it's rewards we lose,,,Jesus said
"whoever loves his life WILL LOSE IT."
The sinner will lose his LIFE, not rewards.
There may be rewards in heaven, but Jesus is always talking about losing our eternal life, not rewards. He surely did not die on the cross so we could have rewards, but so that we could have heaven.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm with wondering. I'm not a glutton for punishment or anything, but I do think following Christ involves dedication, obedience, and there are costs involved, too. Maybe we Protestants could learn alot from the RCC?

Luke 14:26-33

 

[dirtfarmer]

I would just add, for those who insist that it's rewards we lose,,,Jesus said
"whoever loves his life WILL LOSE IT."
The sinner will lose his LIFE, not rewards.
There may be rewards in heaven, but Jesus is always talking about losing our eternal life, not rewards. He surely did not die on the cross so we could have rewards, but so that we could have heaven.

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, to him was given the "mystery of Christ" which is the Church. It was Paul that penned 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. I will quote verses 13-15 which speaks of rewards and the loss of those rewards but retention of salvation.
"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built there upon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved: yet as by fire."

 

[gr8grace3]

I'm with wondering. I'm not a glutton for punishment or anything, but I do think following Christ involves dedication, obedience, and there are costs involved, too. Maybe we Protestants could learn alot from the RCC?

Following Christ does involve obedience and denying self.

But salvation is trusting in Christ.

Really, if salvation involved more than this then every babe in Christ would be in the eternal lake of fire if they died before their time.

Just imagine a wife gets saved, she is on fire for Christ. Her unbelieving husband is a freak on drugs and takes her life because she has now become a 'freak for Jesus." She didn't get a chance to follow the law,do good works, hit the 'high' morality fence, dedicate her life to be the Lord for a lord, and really count the cost?

She really would't be saved because she didn't measure up to 'my' dedication?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Following Christ does involve obedience and denying self.

But salvation is trusting in Christ.

Really, if salvation involved more than this then every babe in Christ would be in the eternal lake of fire if they died before their time.

Just imagine a wife gets saved, she is on fire for Christ. Her unbelieving husband is a freak on drugs and takes her life because she has now become a 'freak for Jesus." She didn't get a chance to follow the law,do good works, hit the 'high' morality fence, dedicate her life to be the Lord for a lord, and really count the cost?

She really would't be saved because she didn't measure up to 'my' dedication?

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

Very good and truthful post. It is when salvation come to those that believe that works follow and not the opposite. Works that are pleasing to God never come before salvation or even for salvation.