Bible Study Free will

[RevSRE]

In good faith there wasn't a 'white paper' to address in our first post, other reactions notwithstanding.

I do understand that if anyone has invested a lot of their theology time only engaging in a pet position without critical examination of that position, or other alternatives, they aren't nearly as much fun to converse with. Looking at everything is somewhat enjoyable for me, and I will glance at the white paper link, but if it's a shill job without critical examinations of the premises put forth it will be a short read.

Postscript: Read it. It was a short read. Obviously written without much discipline and a lot of unsubstantiated assertions right out the gate. I had to stop when the author claimed that Augustine was a hard determinist. Just the scholarly opinions on the Augustine form of (soft) determinism could probably keep me reading on that subject the remainder of my life. Augustine would have a hard time even getting in the league of scholarly hard determinism. The RCC has a freewill posture so I hardly think one of their chief theologians was in the hard determinist camp to any significant degree. When I got to this point, "Christians are not sinners" I couldn't take it as scripturally credible anymore. There were so many points of circular logic whoever wrote it needs some serious scriptural hand holding. No offense. It happens. Challenge your views. It's healthy!

I was not going to even answer this. But I feel this is so important that I must. This review is not close to what I said nor the content of the paper. Yes, we disagree. But I am right in every point and I do not care how many views you can find there is only ONE TRUTH and we need to be trying to explain and describe that TRUTH.
There is no reference to determinism in the discussion I SAID Augustine "From his past" made a choice to include in his teaching Gnostic ideas that ARE errors.
There is also no circular argument . That would be an unknown point defended by making other points that try to prove the starting point. I started with GOD and His authority, said man made a choice that lead him back to GOD. that is a known to a known not circular.

THE point is there are two roads, two paths and God gave us a free will to select where we will go. you may not agree, or like the idea, it is still what the bible says. Look for TRUTH not ways the discredit what you do not understand or believe.
I researched and compiled this paper it is the TRUTH. We all need to understand there are two ways GOD"S WAY and Satan's counterfeit.
The data no Satan's counterfeit is worth reading the paper. Satan is active in the world today trying to use your free will to deceive you .
TWO ROADS one to GOD the other to destruction a counterfeit. Prayerfully read the Truth 'Two Roads" it is well worth your time.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zZR_LknVD7WGaiobl_3RahoeYtV4bCzaWrB-UNbaTSo/edit?usp=sharing

 

[RevSRE]

Who wrote that google article link? I researched and compiled all the data.
RevSRE
I'm really sorry I don't have the time to read the whole article. The reasons I don't have the time is what I'm sorry about - not that I can't read it.
So help me out here. Ran thru it quick. Terrible thing to do! In the very first paragraph it says there are two roads:
1 it's wide and leads to destruction - commandments are not kept
2 it's narrow and leads to life - commandments are kept

Way further down I read:
"Christians are not sinners" exact words

So, are you saying Christians keep the commandments?
Are you saying Christians don't sin? Wondering

There is a difference in "Not Sinners" and "don't sin" We as Christians are not perfect or Complete not yet, BUT in Christ we are Justified Innocent in Christ. We have Christ as our intercessor at the throne of God, if we do disobey God. BUT a Christian IN CHRIST is indwelled by the Holy Spirit and CANNOT BE LIVING IN SIN.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Think about it < New creatures> <indwelled by the Holy Spirit> <Children of God> <Priest of GOD> There IS victory in being a Child of GOD. I feel we may have let Satan steel our victory.
A CHRISTIAN IS NOT cannot be A SINNER (meaning living in open uncaring sin). We are beyond that in Christ we are NEW CREATURES in the Family of GOD.

I said there are Two Roads or Two ways Gods way and Satan's Counterfeit. We have a FREE WILL CHOICE which way we will go.
The most terrifying Truth is that "God will Honor OUR CHOICE"
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zZR_LknVD7WGaiobl_3RahoeYtV4bCzaWrB-UNbaTSo/edit?usp=sharing
The paper is worth READING and UNDERSTANDING!

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a difference in "Not Sinners" and "don't sin" We as Christians are not perfect or Complete not yet, BUT in Christ we are Justified Innocent in Christ. We have Christ as our intercessor at the throne of God, if we do disobey God. BUT a Christian IN CHRIST is indwelled by the Holy Spirit and CANNOT BE LIVING IN SIN.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Think about it < New creatures> <indwelled by the Holy Spirit> <Children of God> <Priest of GOD> There IS victory in being a Child of GOD. I feel we may have let Satan steel our victory.
A CHRISTIAN IS NOT cannot be A SINNER (meaning living in open uncaring sin). We are beyond that in Christ we are NEW CREATURES in the Family of GOD.

I said there are Two Roads or Two ways Gods way and Satan's Counterfeit. We have a FREE WILL CHOICE which way we will go.
The most terrifying Truth is that "God will Honor OUR CHOICE"
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zZR_LknVD7WGaiobl_3RahoeYtV4bCzaWrB-UNbaTSo/edit?usp=sharing
The paper is worth READING and UNDERSTANDING!

Okay. Thanks for answering. I don't have a lot of time to read stuff. I just like to know what the person thinks. I've read the bible quite a few times and don't even understand why it's necessary to read papers.

I agree with everything you've said above in your reply to me. All you've said is obvious from reading the N.T. with an open heart.

Wondering
p.s. I wasn't aware it was YOUR article. Sorry if I was abrasive.

 

[smaller]

I was not going to even answer this. But I feel this is so important that I must. This review is not close to what I said nor the content of the paper. Yes, we disagree. But I am right in every point

Well, good to see you back.

Right in every point? Unlikely. Even Paul saw only in part. I doubt any of us are any different. So being right in every point remains a problematic claim, if we are honest anyway.

I'd rather start by saying I know I'm wrong before I even open my mouth. And I know why. Because I don't have a "freewill." I have a will that is planted, factually, in weakness, corruption, dishonor in a natural body (1 Cor. 15:43-49) in which dwells sin, temptations and lusts and evil is present with me. (Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 4:14. And, with such facts in hand it is entirely unlikely that means free nor does it mean being right on every point. What it does mean is the flesh is contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17

Can you be that honest with me, likewise? Or perhaps you are not right enough or free enough to see these facts for yourself?

 

[RevSRE]

Well, good to see you back.
right in every point? Unlikely. Even Paul saw only in part. I doubt any of us are any different. So being right in every point remains a roblematic claim, if we are honest anyway.
I'd rather start by saying I know I'm wrong before I even open my mouth. And I know why. Because I don't have a "freewill." I have a will that is planted, factually, in weakness, corruption, dishonor in a natural body (1 Cor. 15:43-49) in which dwells sin, temptations and lusts and evil is present with me. (Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 4:14. And, with such facts in hand it is entirely unlikely that means free nor does it mean being right on every point. What it does mean is the flesh is contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17
Can you be that honest with me, likewise? Or perhaps you are not right enough or free enough to see these facts for yourself?

This is my last post on this subject with you. Honest is to tell the truth not some Calvinistic theory of Gnostic heresy. You are in the opposite camp from Me so we will just have to say I do not on any point agree with you. This error has been causing problems in the Church since Agustin. It was wrong then it still Is. IF you were saved you would be in CHRIST, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, your body the temple of God and you a priest of the most high God. In the family of God with the Holy Spirit as your guide you would understand.
I have a will that is planted, factually, in weakness, corruption, dishonor in a natural body (1 Cor. 15:43-49) in which dwells sin, temptations and lusts and evil is present with me.
This describes the natural man.LOST. A Christian Living in CHRIST i snot a sinner. I have said this before. There is a difference in "Not Sinners" and "don't sin" We as Christians are not perfect or Complete not yet, BUT in Christ we are Justified Innocent in Christ. We have Christ as our intercessor at the throne of God, if we do disobey God. BUT a Christian IN CHRIST is indwelled by the Holy Spirit and CANNOT BE LIVING IN SIN.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

One of the problems with your kind of teaching is that it steels the victory that is ours now IN CHRIST.
A Christian is not a Repentant Sinner. A Christian is in Christ! In Christ we are “Indwelled by the Holy Spirit”, Adopted into the family of God, Adopted as Children of God, Heirs of God, Joint heirs with Christ. Old things are passed away ALL things are become new. We are the temple of God indwelled by the Holy Spirit we are Priest of the Most High God with Jesus as Our High Priest. We are a Royal Priest hood and will rule with Christ in Eternity.

Now I Call that VICTORY!! Please do not let Satan steal it!!


WE will agree to disagree and move on. I am Honest, saved, IN CHRIST, I Love the Christian family,
I will Pray for you!!

 

[smaller]

This is my last post on this subject with you. Honest is to tell the truth not some Calvinistic theory of Gnostic heresy.

I am not a Calvinist, but I do have strong determinist leanings similar to the Calvinist postures, with some added features, such as seeing that in our minds we are tempted by the tempter. No amount of "freewill" extends to that agent and this PROVES our minds are NOT free of tempations from a party that is not us.

This is fairly easy to see when we are honest with ourselves.

You are in the opposite camp from Me so we will just have to say I do not on any point agree with you.

You can claim all the freewill choice you want. The tempter who tempts us in mind will not be getting off the hook by our choices, period.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not a Calvinist, but I do have strong determinist leanings similar to the Calvinist postures, with some added features, such as seeing that in our minds we are tempted by the tempter. No amount of "freewill" extends to that agent and this PROVES our minds are NOT free of tempations from a party that is not us.

This is fairly easy to see when we are honest with ourselves.

You can claim all the freewill choice you want. The tempter who tempts us in mind will not be getting off the hook by our choices, period.

Smaller,
I don't think RevSRE is saying that our minds are NOT free of temptations from a party that is not us. That party is satan. It's okay to say it. He's around and tempting us all the time. I think everyone here sees this.
How is our choice not free? We could make the wrong choice. We could choose to steal the money before us, as satan has tempted us to, but it is our choice to steal it. A free choice. Who put the gun to our head?
If satan put the gun to our head, we'd be dripping in sin. There would be no hope. We'd practically be in hell... So if we could choose the good - isn't that free will? I know what you mean about God having free will, (I don't disagree, all else falls under His divine providence) but...

How do you understand Mathew 9:16-17
And what about Mathew 13:24-30
(Jesus explains this one in Mathew 13:36-43)

The good seed and the tares grow together. They're in the same field, but separate. The Lawless Tares will be cast into the furnace and the Good Seed will shine forth as the sun.

Do you agree with this?

Wondering

 

[RevSRE]

I've read the bible quite a few times and don't even understand why it's necessary to read papers.

I meet a woman once that said she had read the Bible through 34 times, She could quote all the important verses, she could not tell you the REAL meaning of any.
I would rather a Christian UNDERSTAND a passage than to have read it or even be able to quote it.
Without History, Culture, social structure, Religious practice, and the Life and Times of a people YOU CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. All the writers of the past, Great men of God, that taught the meaning of the Bible are important to us. All my Books tell me something about the meaning and spirit of the Bible. Words have many meanings there is the definition (the specific meaning), there is the connotation ( an implied meaning or social usage) there is the application (both it applied usage and action it yields).
THOUSANDS of Godly men over the ages have left there understanding of scripture, We can all learn from them. Learn to understand not just read and quote words.

 

[GodsGrace]

I meet a woman once that said she had read the Bible through 34 times, She could quote all the important verses, she could not tell you the REAL meaning of any.
I would rather a Christian UNDERSTAND a passage than to have read it or even be able to quote it.
Without History, Culture, social structure, Religious practice, and the Life and Times of a people YOU CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. All the writers of the past, Great men of God, that taught the meaning of the Bible are important to us. All my Books tell me something about the meaning and spirit of the Bible. Words have many meanings there is the definition (the specific meaning), there is the connotation ( an implied meaning or social usage) there is the application (both it applied usage and action it yields).
THOUSANDS of Godly men over the ages have left there understanding of scripture, We can all learn from them. Learn to understand not just read and quote words.

I know the real meaning.
I know about history, culture, structure of sentences, Greek meanings, etc.
I've been studying my Christian beliefs for 40 years.
I'm pretty much set in my ways by now.
Papers are always by people trying to convince you of something.
I like to read exegesis and commentaries.
I'm already convinced in my beliefs, so I don't read too many papers.

I'll tell you this:
The more I learn
The less I know

The more I know, the more I realize that I don't know a whole lot.
Some people know a little bit and think they know it all (not here).
I know a little bit more but feel like I know nothing.

When I quote something, it's because I understand it - otherwise why quote?

I agree with everything you've said, I'm just sorry you're applying it to me. (since you don't know me).
But it's okay.

Wondering

 

[RevSRE]

I know the real meaning.
I agree with everything you've said, I'm just sorry you're applying it to me. (since you don't know me).
But it's okay. Wondering

I did not mean any thing negative or disrespect. I in fact agree with you. people that write to prove their point instead of what the bible says can be a problem. My Bible studies ( Papers may not be a good term for my use) are with the Holy Spirits help trying to discuss and understand What the Bible says and what that means. So far we agree on the points discussed. I have been actively studying Bible 60 years. I am from a Christian home and do not remember a time when God, the Bible, and the Church were not very important in my life.
And like you the only thing I know for sure is that I have only scratched the surface, I still have a lot to learn, But that is the beauty of Bible study, No Matter WHAT you think you know with Prayerful study GOD will show you something new and more wonderful than you have seen before.

 

[GodsGrace]

I did not mean any thing negative or disrespect. I in fact agree with you. people that write to prove their point instead of what the bible says can be a problem. My Bible studies ( Papers may not be a good term for my use) are with the Holy Spirits help trying to discuss and understand What the Bible says and what that means. So far we agree on the points discussed. I have been actively studying Bible 60 years. I am from a Christian home and do not remember a time when God, the Bible, and the Church were not very important in my life.
And like you the only thing I know for sure is that I have only scratched the surface, I still have a lot to learn, But that is the beauty of Bible study, No Matter WHAT you think you know with Prayerful study GOD will show you something new and more wonderful than you have seen before.

Thanks for replying. I almost missed this.
I'm not upset. I was just trying to explain why I don't read "papers" but also tried to make you understand that I don't feel that I "know it all."

Every time I go to a link, it's about some concept or other. I don't even go to them anymore.

I'm doing a little study right now on the sin nature. Is it the same as "the flesh." Some say Paul used the term interchangeably, some say it's two different things. See? Now I have to open up my bible, get the Young's and go hunting and this takes time. "Papers" don't agree with each other. That's the problem.

In Christ
Wondering

 

[RevSRE]

Thanks for replying. I almost missed this.
I'm not upset. I was just trying to explain why I don't read "papers" but also tried to make you understand that I don't feel that I "know it all."

Every time I go to a link, it's about some concept or other. I don't even go to them anymore.

I'm doing a little study right now on the sin nature. Is it the same as "the flesh." Some say Paul used the term interchangeably, some say it's two different things. See? Now I have to open up my bible, get the Young's and go hunting and this takes time. "Papers" don't agree with each other. That's the problem.

In Christ
Wondering

Wondering, Read the "Study I gave you reference to, you may not agree with all I said, but it starts at the beginning and traces God's Plan AND SATAN'S COUNTERFEIT of God's plan. I think it explains exactly what you are studying.
in short, God said OBEY ME. \Satan said you can do it all of yourself. Understanding the difference explains a lot. Paul or when he was Saul was a Pharisee, He very well knew the difference thus he uses Spirit vs Flesh from that teaching to teach there is only one way to God. That is in Christ by Grace through Faith. Prayerfully study this, It is very valuable in seeing the total picture.

 

[RevSRE]

I'm doing a little study right now on the sin nature. Is it the same as "the flesh." Some say Paul used the term interchangeably, some say it's two different things.

AS you will see in my Study, ( I don't call it a paper any more, see I can learn too) the "SIN NATURE" is a choice God gave us. there are two ways, IF we choose to Fellowship with God we have Life in Him. IF we choose the say there is no God, well that is from Psalms The Fool (literally the empty one) has said in his heart there is no God, left to ones self comes all manner of evil. Psa 14:1-4
I do believe it is just that simple, God gave us a choice, when you see why, for Fellowship, you will see the whole picture.
I may add God gave us a Choice the frightening part is GOD WILL HONOR THAT CHOICE.

 

[GodsGrace]

AS you will see in my Study, ( I don't call it a paper any more, see I can learn too) the "SIN NATURE" is a choice God gave us. there are two ways, IF we choose to Fellowship with God we have Life in Him. IF we choose the say there is no God, well that is from Psalms The Fool (literally the empty one) has said in his heart there is no God, left to ones self comes all manner of evil. Psa 14:1-4
I do believe it is just that simple, God gave us a choice, when you see why, for Fellowship, you will see the whole picture.
I may add God gave us a Choice the frightening part is GOD WILL HONOR THAT CHOICE.

I'll check it out.
But could you please repost it?

Wondering

 

[RevSRE]

I'll check it out.
But could you please repost it?

Wondering

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zZR_LknVD7WGaiobl_3RahoeYtV4bCzaWrB-UNbaTSo/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Tracy J. Harper]

For free will.There is God's love and wisdom inside, and has truth to seek also. First, God created us living beings not machine. He doesn't want us follow Him like robots, follow Him mutely. There are many who believe in God, but very few who love God. We fear God only because we fear disaster. God in essence is notonly for people to believe, but even more for them to love. He doesn’t force people to love Him, but rather lets people have voluntary love. People love God not because other people encourage them to, or because of a strong one-time feeling, but because people have seen God’s loveable qualities, have seen that God has so many qualities worthy of loving, and have seen God’s salvation, God’s wisdom and God’s wonderful deeds.

 

[thepilgrim111]

Man has free will. Ever since Satan tempted Eve, and then tempted Adam through Eve, man has been a slave to sin. God tells us in seval places in scripture that no man seek God also that there is no good in man. Scripture also tells us that we must turn to God in order to escape the just desserts of our sin.

Scripture also tells us that Jesus saves and keeps those whom the Father gives them. Can I put all that together in a simple explanation? No! And I think everyone who has ever tried, from Augustine to Calvin and many since have all tended to go off on a tangent somewhere along the line.

So my conclusion to the problem, just as in the case of the Trinity, is to accept that God say it is so; so it is so. I am a hopeless and a helpless sinner, but yet God desires to save me from myself; and miraculously through the blood of Jesus Christ. I don't argue with God's Word; I accept. I just tell people where they stand and that Jesus can get them to stand in a better place; in the very presence of God without being condemned. All the rest is neither, here nor there.

God bless
Lonnie

 

[GodsGrace]

Man has free will. Ever since Satan tempted Eve, and then tempted Adam through Eve, man has been a slave to sin. God tells us in seval places in scripture that no man seek God also that there is no good in man. Scripture also tells us that we must turn to God in order to escape the just desserts of our sin.

Scripture also tells us that Jesus saves and keeps those whom the Father gives them. Can I put all that together in a simple explanation? No! And I think everyone who has ever tried, from Augustine to Calvin and many since have all tended to go off on a tangent somewhere along the line.

So my conclusion to the problem, just as in the case of the Trinity, is to accept that God say it is so; so it is so. I am a hopeless and a helpless sinner, but yet God desires to save me from myself; and miraculously through the blood of Jesus Christ. I don't argue with God's Word; I accept. I just tell people where they stand and that Jesus can get them to stand in a better place; in the very presence of God without being condemned. All the rest is neither, here nor there.

God bless
Lonnie

Very nice Lonnie.
And welcome to the forum. Hope to see more of you.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zZR_LknVD7WGaiobl_3RahoeYtV4bCzaWrB-UNbaTSo/edit?usp=sharing

Hi Rev,
i checked out your paper. it's not a paper, it's a book!
Uffa. I can't sit here and read 43 pages. It's all stuff we basically know, but it's good - I'm not saying it's not. You put a lot of work into it and it's very good for someone just starting out.

From the little I was able to read (time limitations) I agree with most but have to disagree with, I think, page 8 or 9 about free will and how we really have it and you explain about sovereignty: We know God is sovereign, the problem is His Providence. Nothing happens without His wanting it.

I'm really sorry I can't rad it all. I wish it could be downsized to a few pages.
I'll try again tomorrow morning, but I don't have the kind of time you must think I have.
I wish I did.

Wondering

 

[RevSRE]

We know God is sovereign, the problem is His Providence. Nothing happens without His wanting it.

First You do not have to read it all at one setting or in one day. there is a lot there it may take time.

Second understand Sovereign It only means THE MOST HIGH, THE HIGHEST OF ANY ORDER. God is the highest of ALL.
Sovereign does NOT mean the only one that can want to make a choice. THAT IS THE OLDEST PROBLEM IN RELIGIOUS THOUGHT.
DICTATOR IS THE ONLY ONE ALLOW TO MAKE A DECISION. God is not a dictator. HE gave us a choice. read it prayerfully, this is explained in the discussion.
from page 10
Religion has resulted in the invention of a new meaning for the word "sovereign," which basically means God controls everything. Nothing can happen but what He wills or allows. However, there is nothing in the actual definition that states that. The dictionary defines "sovereign" as, "1. Paramount; supreme. 2. Having supreme rank or power. 3. Independent: a sovereign state. 4. Excellent." None of these definitions means that God controls everything.

It is assumed that since God is paramount or supreme that nothing can happen without His approval. That is not what the Scriptures teach. In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter said, "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This clearly states that it is not the Lord's will for anyone to perish, but people are perishing. Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in there at" (Matt. 7:13). Relatively few people are saved compared to the number that are lost. God's will for people concerning salvation is not being accomplished.The Sovereignty Of God By Andrew Wommack