Fuel Cell Technology

[JohnDB]

After talking with Jeff
I discovered fuel cell technology again.
It's not like it used to be.
It's been radically changed from what we have been told.

So these days you can pump gas into your car for the fuel cell and with special technology it converts that fuel into electricity and heat. (Water vapor and some kind of nitrogen dioxide comes out the tailpipe )

The special membrane is the problem...they have been using platinum ($1500 worth per cell)
But now they have iron/sulfur compounds that seems to work the same.

If they can get ALL the bugs worked out... this could make a full sized truck get 90 miles to the gallon.

And since there's no moving parts...less maintenance.
It's going to be very interesting to see how it works out.

 

[WIP]

So the gasoline engine drives a generator to operate electric motors on the wheels?

 

[JohnDB]

So the gasoline engine drives a generator to operate electric motors on the wheels?

But this would be clean emmissions and three to four times the fuel economy.
No more MARTA.
No more oil changes.
No more catalytic converter and tailpipe problems.
No more Spark plugs or coil problems...

No special fuel or waiting to get a charge on your battery pack.

And a FULL sized SUV or Pickup truck that gets 90 MPG.

 

[stovebolts]

So the gasoline engine drives a generator to operate electric motors on the wheels?

Your thinking of the VOLT which GM is also discontinuing.
The VOLT currently gets about 50 miles on a charge (on a good day) and then a gas powered engine starts up to run a generator which in turn charges the battery for the electric motor.

By contrast, the BOLT gets about 250 miles out of a single charge. However, once it's dead your looking for an outlet.

This is where the Hydrogen fuel cell comes in. Picture this.

Your gas tank says Empty, so you pull into the gas station to fill up. You fill up your tank and the gasoline gets converted to Hydrogen to power the hydrogen fuel cell.... which charges the batter without a generator. Or... you could just plug in. The combustible engine is now obsolete and so are tail pipe emissions since the byproduct is water. Ohh, and like John said, it's way more efficient when you start looking at MPG.

 

[stovebolts]

But this would be clean emmissions and three to four times the fuel economy.
No more MARTA.
No more oil changes.
No more catalytic converter and tailpipe problems.
No more Spark plugs or coil problems...

No special fuel or waiting to get a charge on your battery pack.

And a FULL sized SUV or Pickup truck that gets 90 MPG.

I had forgot about this, but GM has a Chevy Colorado with a fuel cell that they gave to the military back in 2016. So they've been developing tech for several years now.

 

[WIP]

So, instead of fueling up with gasoline, LP, or diesel, you fuel up with liquid hydrogen, which would be under pressure like LP?

 

[JohnDB]

So, instead of fueling up with gasoline, LP, or diesel, you fuel up with liquid hydrogen, which would be under pressure like LP?

No... nothing of the sort.

You go to the gas station... same one as you have been using...

I'm not sure exactly what petroleum product they will configure the cell for....but it can be just about every type of fossil fuel.
Some are better than others but you will use regular fuels already on the market.

 

[WIP]

Trying to find information about how gasoline is converted to produce the hydrogen needed and what the emissions of that process are.

 

[JohnDB]

It's hydrocarbon fuel... oxygen is taken out of the atmosphere...a small amount of co2 is produced...electrons are given up during the process which generates the DC current.

 

[WIP]

In post #4 Stovebolts said you would fill up with gasoline and it would be converted to hydrogen. There would obviously be many byproducts from that process, one of which is carbon but if the carbon is not allowed to combine with oxygen it may not emit CO.

On the other hand....
Since water compounds are made up of two hydrogen atoms with one oxygen atom, water would be the perfect fuel source. When burning hydrogen it combines with oxygen to produce water therefore, the water molecules produced could be separated again to repeat the process. Except for the losses where the electrons have been separated it would be getting closer to a perpetual motion application.

The next problem is what do we do with the water shortage this could eventually create when we convert all of our energy sources to hydrogen cells?

 

[Michael74]

Nissan is working on an ethanol powered fuel cell.

 

[Knotical]

Nissan is working on an ethanol powered fuel cell.

Ethanol is an extremely inefficient fuel source considering what it takes to produce.

 

[JohnDB]

The exhaust is water...the oxygen comes from the air with this tech. Some kind of nitrogen dioxide comes out too.

They finally have a stable semipermeable membrane that doesn't foul up...that's the biggest thing. (Special kind of plastic that the membrane is placed on).

Really exciting technology.

 

[stovebolts]

Ethanol is an extremely inefficient fuel source considering what it takes to produce.

Not really. Ethanol was the preferred fuel for hydrogen conversion. The end goal for E85 was never the combustion engine. Rather, it was a stepping stone to increase Ethenol production to support hydrogen fuel cells.

History shows us that it was resisted and was politicized till it died. After all, your talking the elimination of a lot of good paying jobs and the collapse of a global business.

If the new direction is to convert fossil fuels into hydrogen, then you dont have to fight the oil companies to build a new infustructure that would support fuel cell technology.

 

[stovebolts]

The exhaust is water...the oxygen comes from the air with this tech. Some kind of nitrogen dioxide comes out too.

They finally have a stable semipermeable membrane that doesn't foul up...that's the biggest thing. (Special kind of plastic that the membrane is placed on).

Really exciting technology.

It is exciting! I've been following this topic since about 2005 and I cant believe its finally becoming a reality. Well, not yet but you do have all of the car companies United on this front with the same goal. Well, Chrysler is not really on board cause they dont have the cash and they trail behind GM and Ford... but still, pretty exciting.
I just hate that 15,000 plus jobs are getting cut.

 

[Knotical]

Not really. Ethanol was the preferred fuel for hydrogen conversion. The end goal for E85 was never the combustion engine. Rather, it was a stepping stone to increase Ethenol production to support hydrogen fuel cells.

History shows us that it was resisted and was politicized till it died. After all, your talking the elimination of a lot of good paying jobs and the collapse of a global business.

If the new direction is to convert fossil fuels into hydrogen, then you dont have to fight the oil companies to build a new infustructure that would support fuel cell technology.

But since the primary way to produce ethanol as to grow corn, and the process to make ethanol just was not very cost efficient compared with other ways of developing sources of fuel.

 

[stovebolts]

But since the primary way to produce ethanol as to grow corn, and the process to make ethanol just was not very cost efficient compared with other ways of developing sources of fuel.

Yeah.... I dont really want to rehash those views. The push was actually switchgrass. But, without the infrastructure to transport it to distribution sites, it wasnt economical trucking it to the distro centers.
Ironically, the infrastructure is now in place.

 

[Truthfrees]

After talking with Jeff
I discovered fuel cell technology again.
It's not like it used to be.
It's been radically changed from what we have been told.

So these days you can pump gas into your car for the fuel cell and with special technology it converts that fuel into electricity and heat. (Water vapor and some kind of nitrogen dioxide comes out the tailpipe )

The special membrane is the problem...they have been using platinum ($1500 worth per cell)
But now they have iron/sulfur compounds that seems to work the same.

If they can get ALL the bugs worked out... this could make a full sized truck get 90 miles to the gallon.

And since there's no moving parts...less maintenance.
It's going to be very interesting to see how it works out.

sounds awesome

 

[Michael74]

Arpa is funding direct ethanol powered fuel cells, bypassing the reformer stage altogether. Several technologies are competing for the future of vehicles.

Many countries have banned conventional vehicles on a certain date. 777,000 alternative vehicles have been sold in China this year. Up 53% in one year.

Petrol powered fuel cells would help quite a bit in rural USA, where long distance commutes are the norm. Petrol infrastructure is already in place.

 

[Michael74]

Ethanol is an extremely inefficient fuel source considering what it takes to produce.

Its easier to work with chemically, in fuel cell cars. It doesn't have to be made with corn. Brazil uses sugarcane. Whatever is locally available. Switchgrass can be used.

Energy efficiency isn't the main selling point though. Many areas of the world have serious smog issues. In India and such they walk around with masks to protect them from smog. California has inversion layers that trap smog. Switching to alternatives is needed to protect citizens in such places. Many nations have banned conventional internal combustion engines on a future date.

Rural USA has wide open spaces that dissipate smog, so it is a non issue there. Mumbai et al are getting desperate, and are seeking solutions. Millions of alternative vehicles are on the roads in China.

Oil is also finite, so research should be done to help future generations. You want your great grandchildren to have food on the table. Arpa and such are a step in the right direction.