Fuel Cell Technology

[stovebolts]

The military likes to use jet fuel (JP8) because of it's characteristics. (High flash point and low foam)
So fuel for the military is "one size fits all". All vehicles use this fuel including the Navy. Their electric motors run from generators fed with JP8.

Other hydrocarbon fuels would work...the formulation of other fuels wouldn't severely affect the fuel cell efficiencies and likely would be better.

You know the philosophy: the right way, the wrong way, the military way.

I was asking because of what you said about the gasoline additives being harmful to the fuel cell.
Do you know if JP8 has the same harmful additives?

You know the military has a JP8 hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, right?

 

[JohnDB]

Everyone is tight-lipped about the performance of their fuel cells.

Getting exact performance and issues from long term use data is very proprietary at the moment. (No one wants their ideas stolen)

Then there's the political stuff...

But yes, the military's vehicle running on JP8 is what most of the articles available are about.
Getting into the technical aspects of the fuel cell is not for the faint of chemistry. And my knowledge of chemistry is limited...but next week is our Christmas party and there's a chemistry research scientist attending...I'm going to ask him about some things.

 

[Michael74]

...there is less energy in E85 than an equal amount of gasoline. period. However, because you can run higher compression ratios, you can achieve higher cylinder pressures and produce high HP. You need a good bit more juice though. A pontiac guy here in the south converted his supercharged drag car and posted his findings at http://hardcorepontiacs.com/forum/169-e85-report.html
He said that he used almost twice the fuel as he would with race gas...

There seems to be less energy in a gallon of ethanol. No way around that. Ethanol does allow a lot of horsepower though. That's why its used in racing engines. Racing engines are not optimized for MPG though, just speed.

Ethanol internal combustion engines will never have the range of petrol ICE engines. Ethanol fuel cell vehicles can have better range though, since the process is more efficient.

 

[JohnDB]

There seems to be less energy in a gallon of ethanol. No way around that. Ethanol does allow a lot of horsepower though. That's why its used in racing engines. Racing engines are not optimized for MPG though, just speed.

Ethanol internal combustion engines will never have the range of petrol ICE engines. Ethanol fuel cell vehicles can have better range though, since the process is more efficient.

That may be fine and true for ICE...
But when dealing with hydrogen fuel cell technology it's all about electrons...which has no relationship with combustion. Completely different technology and focus of the reactions.

 

[Michael74]

Is the echo boost Turbo charged?

Yes. It gets reasonable mileage when the turbo is not running. Ethanol allows turbo to produce power, but it tanks fuel economy when in use.

 

[Michael74]

That may be fine and true for ICE...
But when dealing with hydrogen fuel cell technology it's all about electrons...which has no relationship with combustion. Completely different technology and focus of the reactions.

As I understand it, ethanol works good for fuel cell vehicles. They should have utilized limited farming capacity to promote ethanol fuel cell vehicles in cities with a lot of smog. Putting it in rural ICE engines just annoyed rural citizens. They had to fill their tanks more often, and gained no benefit in trade. Putting ethanol in urban ICE engines made people breathe more smog, and gave them no benefit in return. Ethanol in ICE is a lose/lose scenario for most citizens.

Ethanol in urban fuel cell vehicles is the way to go. It tames smog, and gives good MPG. A win/win scenario for the majority.

 

[stovebolts]

Everyone is tight-lipped about the performance of their fuel cells.

Getting exact performance and issues from long term use data is very proprietary at the moment. (No one wants their ideas stolen)

Then there's the political stuff...

But yes, the military's vehicle running on JP8 is what most of the articles available are about.
Getting into the technical aspects of the fuel cell is not for the faint of chemistry. And my knowledge of chemistry is limited...but next week is our Christmas party and there's a chemistry research scientist attending...I'm going to ask him about some things.

That's cool.
Many, many years ago I got to meet a man who helped bring the fuel cell technology along. He was an amazing man who knew everything about it. I wish I had understood the chemistry he was trying to explain to me, but it was way beyond my pay scale.
I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall listening to a conversation between him and you.

 

[JohnDB]

That's cool.
Many, many years ago I got to meet a man who helped bring the fuel cell technology along. He was an amazing man who knew everything about it. I wish I had understood the chemistry he was trying to explain to me, but it was way beyond my pay scale.
I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall listening to a conversation between him and you.

A lot of that chemistry is over my head too. I understand about how some elements attract others (all has to do with sharing electrons...the very thing we are after) but some form stronger bonds than others do.
And this fuel cell technology is all about the weak, temporary bonding to remove the desired elements and then when forming water (strong bonds) the electrons (electricity) is given off.

Things that I'm pretty sure will be issues are contaminates in the semipermeable membrane that hinder hydrogen production,
Size of the stack creating electricity, recovery speed of the membranes (how long can the thing continuously operate?)

 

[Michael74]

Madrid bans cars that pollute. Berlin also has a ban on polluting cars. Fuel cell cars are ideal for these places. Healthy air for citizens.

 

[Michael74]

BTW, fuel cell vehicles should be powered by 100% ethanol. Any petrol in the mix zaps the reformer that changes ethanol into hydrogen.

Similarly, internal combustion engines should be run on 100% petrol. Mixing in ethanol makes the mix evaporate faster, thus polluting city air. The RVP (Reid vapor pressure) of E10 is 1 PSI greater than petrol.

The two should never be mixed. Either 100% petrol for ICE engines, or 100% ethanol for fuel cell vehicles. Petrol is a non polar molecule, and ethanol has a polar OH complex on it. The two don't mix well, and tend to separate out over time.

 

[JohnDB]

Ok...
Talked about this technology with a research chemistry scientist.

From what he was saying...
The contaminates in petroleum products from underground tanks (water and other things) will really mess things up.

In the lab things work great....but in the world where things aren't so pure and simple... trouble.

Platinum makes a great catalyst... and is expensive. Others may work but not as effectively...and again the whole issue will be the contaminates. How does this technology remove the contaminates?

It must... some will destroy the membrane and some will clog it up. If they can somehow be removed from the tank...this has a shot of being more than something that works great in the lab.

 

[Michael74]

Research should continue. When the technology is ready, people will be happy with it. Fuel cells are not limited by Carnot's theorem, and could significantly improve miles per gallon. People will gladly buy SUVs that can go twice as far on a tank. All else being equal.

 

[Michael74]

Air pollution zaps 1.24 million people in India during 2017. India desperately needs fuel cell technology in their cars. The US EPA limits PM2.5 to 15 μg/m3. Delhi is currently about 500.

 

[Michael74]

Delhi citizens have been told to stay indoors indefinitely, and close their windows. Avoid outdoor exercise. Children are being told to wear face masks to filter the air.

Delhi desperately needs fuel cell and electric cars, and they are not the only ones. Lancet says 1.9 million people were zapped in 2015 across Asia by particulates alone. This suggests that adding in the effects of sulfur dioxide, NOX, and other stuff, tens of millions across Asia have been zapped by air pollution over recent decades.

 

[JohnDB]

Delhi citizens have been told to stay indoors indefinitely, and close their windows. Avoid outdoor exercise. Children are being told to wear face masks to filter the air.

Delhi desperately needs fuel cell and electric cars, and they are not the only ones. Lancet says 1.9 million people were zapped in 2015 across Asia by particulates alone. This suggests that adding in the effects of sulfur dioxide, NOX, and other stuff, tens of millions across Asia have been zapped by air pollution over recent decades.

This is the Fall Season there.
Millions of Chinese and people in India are burning buckets of coal to try and stay warm since the central heating isn't turned on. Both places heat by steam for most of it's citizenry. It isn't the cars...although the exhaust from these vehicles isn't helping. But most of these places use propane to fuel their vehicles. Not Diesel or gasoline. Propane is cheap and easy to get. Diesel and gasoline are expensive and difficult to get. Its the coal in buckets burning that is doing the damage. The smog gets so thick it is like a fog so thick that you can't even see across the street to the other sidewalk.

 

[Michael74]

India runs about 2 million out of their total estimated 60 million vehicles...

Propane vehicles do help reduce smog. Electric and fuel cell would be even better.

3 1/3% of Indian cars use propane.

 

[JohnDB]

Propane vehicles do help reduce smog. Electric and fuel cell would be even better.

3 1/3% of Indian cars use propane.

Huh... woulda thought that it would be more because of the LPG supplies in the neighborhood.
What I know about LPG from our Aussie friends is that they usually don't travel as far on a bottle of LPG vx gasoline.

But...
A motorized rickshaw doesn't burn much gas.

 

[Michael74]

Huh... woulda thought that it would be more because of the LPG supplies in the neighborhood.

Most Indians cook with propane, which is why it is so ubiquitous in non rich neighborhoods.

Most Indians can't afford a car though, so it doesn't matter whether petrol stations are in non rich neighborhoods. Only rich Indians buy cars, and they have petrol suppliers to service them. The rich can get what they want.

 

[jasonc]

Cook off right of the tank .we has those in country

 

[Michael74]

...the European Union’s biofuel programs have led to devastating losses of tropical rain forests around the world as countries from Indonesia to Brazil clear them rapaciously to tap into the EU’s rich subsidies for palm seed and now soybeans.

Tropical forests recycle the planet's air.

We need something that is evidence based science designed to improve the air. Not myriad different lobby designed for various unrelated purposes. People need clean, healthy air to breathe.