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Futurist vs Preterist debate

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JLB let me ask you your thoughts on Why Jesus told Mary not to touch Him ...
Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And here HE says this to Thomas
Joh_20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
The conclusion i see is He ascended and returned...

He presented Himself alive for 40 days after His resurrection.

The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. Acts 1:1-3

This clearly and plainly teaches us He ascended after the 40 days.

Thomas never touched Him... He saw and believed.

27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29
Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."John 20:27-29

JLB
 
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JLB
He presented Himself alive for 40 days after His resurrection.
This is a dodge answer
So we can do this the way you ask questions...

Did Jesus say this yes or no... Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Did Jesus ascend Yes or no...

Did he return Yes or No?
Joh_20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
 
JLB This is a dodge answer
So we can do this the way you ask questions...

Did Jesus say this yes or no... Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Did Jesus ascend Yes or no...

Did he return Yes or No?
Joh_20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.


A dodge answer?????????

What are you talking about?????

Please read my post, carefully.

It is the scripture that clearly states Jesus ascended AFTER the 40 days.

The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. Acts 1:1-3


until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,

until the day which He was taken up...

He presented Himself alive, as a witness to His Resurrection from the dead.

He did this. and by the Spirit gave commandments to His Apostles whom He had chosen.

He did all these things for 40 days... until the DAY, He was taken up.

until the Day He was taken up!


The side note about Thomas, was just an added proof that you are reading into a scripture things that are simple not there.

Thomas never touched Him.

Thomas saw Him and believed.

Simple as that.

"Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed.

It doesn't say, Thomas, because you have touched Me and believe...

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!"
27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:26-29


Acts 1 is irrefutable -

until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen...
being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.


Here is when He was taken up and ascended to Heaven and remains there seated at the right hand of God, unto this very Day.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11


JLB
 
Did Jesus say this yes or no...
Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
 
Did Jesus say this yes or no...
Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Jesus said that, Yes.

Jesus did not ascend to the father until after 40 Days, period.

...until the day in which He was taken up...

1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.


Here is the actual recorded plain and clear undeniable, irrefutable scripture about Him being taken up.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."


Please read what the scripture actually says, not what you "need" it to say.


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


He will appear a second time,

Second means 2.

He came and appeared once.

He will come a second time.

Second time.

Not a third time, a second time!


JLB
 
JLB you agree Jesus said this.. Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

ok one question settled.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Did Jesus say this... yes or no

Joh_20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
 
JLB you agree Jesus said this.. Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

ok one question settled.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Did Jesus say this... yes or no

Joh_20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

I answered your question about Mary.

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Does this scripture say a second time or a third time?

JLB
 
Another dodge JLB... Did Jesus allow Thomas to touch Him? Is that that hard of a question.. I see clearly why you are unwilling to sayso. The Verses i posted imply He ascended and returned but that just does not fit into the theology of many..

Absolutely it says second time..
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28
So some how Heb 9 :28 and John 20 :17 have to 'jive' or blend together ...

Also Hebrews 9:28 does not say He will not return a 3 ,4 -the time,,,, that thought is being read into the verse.. Please note i have not stated He will return over and over... I simply said the verse does not rule out another ...
 
JLB, I have repeatedly asked you to clarify your usage of Hebrews 9:28 and what it means to appear without sin? But you have ignored it and apparently have no answer for it, as well as it appears as though you have completely missed the application of this scripture. You have likened this passage to a coming in which you think Jesus will appear before the entire world and that every eye will see him. But that is not what this scripture is referring to.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Three points to make concerning this particular scripture.

1). He appears only to those who look for him, who look for his coming. It does not say he appears to everyone, believers and unbelievers alike. He appears only to those who look for his coming.

2). There seems to be a misplaced emphasis on the word “second” that does not belong there. You can not put a finite number of times that the Lord shall choose to appear. This scripture does not infer that the Lord shall only appear exactly two times.

Second Time: g1208. δεύτερος deuteros; as the compare of 1417; (ordinal) second (in time, place, or rank; also adverb):— afterward, again, second (- arily, time.

3). He shall appear without sin unto salvation. What does it mean that he will appear without sin? And why is that significant? To appear without sin unto salvation means that he shall appear apart from His Body by his Holy Spirit, because the Glory and Righteousness that the Father has Glorified in the Son can not be known in the flesh, it can only be beheld and known in the Spirit.

Hebrews 9:28 simply says that to those who look for His coming, he shall appear afterward when he shall send you the Comforter, the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:4-5 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

John 16:7-16 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away:for if I go not away,the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Andwhenheis come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:Of sin, because they believe not on me;Of righteousness,because I go to my Father, and ye[see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:and he will shew you things to come.He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.A little while,and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while,and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.


Hebrews 9:28 has absolutely nothing to do with last day and the redemption of the purchased price (Eph 1:13-14), but rather the earnest of the inheritance and promise of the Holy Spirit for those that look for Him.

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

edited for font reba
 
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JLB, I have repeatedly asked you to clarify your usage of Hebrews 9:28 and what it means to appear without sin? But you have ignored it and apparently have no answer for it, as well as it appears as though you have completely missed the application of this scripture. You have likened this passage to a coming in which you think Jesus will appear before the entire world and that every eye will see him. But that is not what this scripture is referring to.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Three points to make concerning this particular scripture.

1). He appears only to those who look for him, who look for his coming. It does not say he appears to everyone, believers and unbelievers alike. He appears only to those who look for his coming.

2). There seems to be a misplaced emphasis on the word “second” that does not belong there. You can not put a finite number of times that the Lord shall choose to appear. This scripture does not infer that the Lord shall only appear exactly two times.

Second Time: g1208. δεύτερος deuteros; as the compare of 1417; (ordinal) second (in time, place, or rank; also adverb):— afterward, again, second (- arily, time.

3). He shall appear without sin unto salvation. What does it mean that he will appear without sin? And why is that significant? To appear without sin unto salvation means that he shall appear apart from His Body by his Holy Spirit, because the Glory and Righteousness that the Father has Glorified in the Son can not be known in the flesh, it can only be beheld and known in the Spirit.

Hebrews 9:28 simply says that to those who look for His coming, he shall appear afterward when he shall send you the Comforter, the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:4-5 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

John 16:7-16 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

Hebrews 9:28 has absolutely nothing to do with last day and the redemption of the purchased price (Eph 1:13-14), but rather the earnest of the inheritance and promise of the Holy Spirit for those that look for Him.

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


I answered your question back in post 345

Apart from sin means sinless, without the sins He had to bear for us.

Post 345 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

He will come a second time apart from the sins He had to bear for many.

Apart from sin means sinless, without the sins He had to bear for us.



JLB
 
I answered your question back in post 345

Apart from sin means sinless, without the sins He had to bear for us.
JLB
YLT, says sin-offering.
Heb 9:26 since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Heb 9:28 so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him--to salvation!

He came once as a sin-offering. He will appear again, not as a sin-offering.
 
Another dodge JLB... Did Jesus allow Thomas to touch Him? Is that that hard of a question.. I see clearly why you are unwilling to sayso. The Verses i posted imply He ascended and returned but that just does not fit into the theology of many..

Absolutely it says second time..
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28
So some how Heb 9 :28 and John 20 :17 have to 'jive' or blend together ...

Also Hebrews 9:28 does not say He will not return a 3 ,4 -the time,,,, that thought is being read into the verse.. Please note i have not stated He will return over and over... I simply said the verse does not rule out another ...

Hebrews 9:28 clearly states He will appear a second time...

That clearly rules that He came a second before.


JLB
 
If you say that Christ came in 70 AD, then you are essentially saying the resurrection is past.

For He will appear a second time, at the end of the age, on the last Day to resurrect the dead. Hebrews 9:28

If you are saying the end of the age was 70 AD, and Christ second Coming was in 70 AD, then you are teaching that the Resurrection is past.

The is only one second Coming, at that at the end of the age, whereby Jesus will return and Resurrect all those who are His. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

JLB

I haven't yet chosen to teach, and you have no idea what I ever say because you never pause to consider the specific context within which I qualify any statement concerning eschatology.:)
 
A couple of years ago, I used to go to Carm and read. There was a guy on there that closed each of his statements in the eschatology threads with "case closed". Sheesh.
 
No, this guy's name started with an R but I'm not sure of the rest. He was a futurist I think.
lol. I meant that he was raptured and was posting to us in the past.lol. I try not to be a know it all on these matters, but well with opinions that is hard not to do.
 
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