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  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

God Created Man/Adam Sin-ful

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I said nothing of the sort.
Why did you even suggest such a thing?
Why are you doing exactly what you say you want to curtail?
I'll answer for him, although he is capable to speak for himself.

I used to cuss worse than a sailor. I cussed so often I didnt even know I was cussing. One day my brother called me on it and I replied, "What the @!$#% are you taking about?

When my Mom got older, she lost bladder control. She got so used to the urine smell, she stopped smelling it.

We can get so used to something we dont recognise its stench.... were human. But when somebody that cares about you brings it to your attention, they are not doing so with the intent to shame.
 
That would be nice.
It requires that one be allowed to speak the truth as clearly and concisely as he is able.
BUt that seems to be a problem here.
Ad nauseam, .... truth isnt the issue. It's the love part. Below is what love looks like.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Here is its counter part.

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If a brother is in error, how are we to correct them?
 
If it’s a sin against you, that’s my point. Peter had not offended Paul personally by not eating with Gentiles hypocritically. That wasn’t a sin against Paul personally.

The one to the Gentiles.
There is no gospel to the Gentiles.
The apostles were sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel who were scattered across the then-known world after the Diaspora, the taking away to captivity to the far east into Assyria and later Babylon. These children of Abraham were all together in what would become Israel around the Tabernacle when the Promise was made, and now that Israel's Messiah had come God sent these apostles to herald the three-word Gospel/good news: A Promise Fulfilled. God has kept His Promise.
And I will tell you they were extremely glad and gave Yahweh their God ALL the glory for that!

You gotta give God credit for that to reach deep into those lands to His people to let them know the Deliverer like unto Moses had come and that now salvation was being preached to THEM.
 
I'd be willing to help, but I don't understand HOW across the internet...
I just took a look at the TOS and I see some grammatical errors..is this what you're referring to?

And if I fixed them (very good at English), how do you get the corrected copy??

P.S. I know a sentence cannot start with the word AND...
It's called Artistic Freedom!!
wondering, it is possible. Stove is interested in making the ToS which will be our foundation to be consistent with the Word of God for believers in Covenant. He can use your executive secretary skills when the time comes. Praise God.
 
There is no gospel to the Gentiles.
I think you missed some stuff.

Paul ministered the Gospel to the Gentiles.
Rom 15:15-16 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written more boldly to you on some points, as reminding you, because of the grace given to me by God, that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
The apostles were sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel
Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles.
His habit was to go to the synagogues and preach the Gospel. He would be opposed by some of the Jews in each of the synagogues and would then go preach to the Gentiles.
Act 13:45-47 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us:
‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ 


Paul identified himself as the apostle to the Gentiles.
Rom 11:13 For I (Paul) speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Eph 3:8 To me, (Paul) who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
 
I think you missed some stuff.

Paul ministered the Gospel to the Gentiles.
Rom 15:15-16 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written more boldly to you on some points, as reminding you, because of the grace given to me by God, that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles.
His habit was to go to the synagogues and preach the Gospel. He would be opposed by some of the Jews in each of the synagogues and would then go preach to the Gentiles.
Act 13:45-47 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us:
‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’


Paul identified himself as the apostle to the Gentiles.
Rom 11:13 For I (Paul) speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Eph 3:8 To me, (Paul) who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
James, Paul is specific. He says it is the gospel of God.
What is the gospel of God?
Paul went to the Gentiles because that's where His Hebrew brethren were: among the Gentiles. Pater described how Cornelius - a Gentile was given the Holy Spirit as they were at the first.

Romans 15:8 (KJV)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Jesus was Promised to the circumcision (Abrahamic Covenant - Hebrews.)
Jesus appeared to the circumcision and it was to them that He was sent. The lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Matthew 10:5-6 (KJV)
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

It is clear, it is emphatic, and it is command. Nowhere does Jesus Christ command His apostles go to Gentiles.


Matthew 15:21-24 (KJV)
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

But this Gentile woman as Covenant as Jesus eventually delivered her and her daughter.

The woman KNEW HER PLACE. As Gentile she knew that Messiah would come, she identified Jesus as Messiah. And this woman knew her place. She also knew the prophecies that Gentiles would be brought into Covenant as well and all she asked for was a little bit against the whole lotta that would come later. The Time of the Gentiles is coming to a close. Soon, God will declare His Gospel to Israel and Israel will receive THEIR MESSIAH.

I have no issue Paul preached AMONG the Gentiles and not TO the Gentiles, for this priest-turned apostle knew the Scriptures back and forth. But all he - as the other religious leaders knew was letter of the Law until the Holy Spirit animated the SEED that was planted in his soul and the man became a powerhouse seeking his brethren AMONG the Gentiles for he knew that is where they were. But as Gentiles became saved his ministry became fine-turned to include the Gentiles because he also knew, as the Samaritan woman - the prophecies that Gentiles would be grafted in. Not the other way around. Writing to both "Jew" and Gentile at Rome - a place he wanted to visit and eventually did - had its problems, like eating food sacrificed to idols, etc.

Meanwhile, Messiah/Christ was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Is-ra-el.
And to Is-ra-el He came.
The "lost" always refer to God's Elect Israel, not the world at large, not Gentiles at large, but to God's Elect.

Jesus Christ was minister to the circumcision, NOT the uncircumcision.
And later, Jesus Christ was STILL minister to the circumcision, but now it was circumcision of the 'heart.'
 
There is no gospel to the Gentiles.

And this good-news of the kingdom will be proclaimed in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations. And then the end will come.
Matthew 24:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 24:14&version=DLNT

The apostles were sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel


And the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus ordered them. And having seen Him, they worshiped Him. But the ones doubted. And having come to them, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth was given to Me. Therefore having gone, make-disciples-of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:16-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 28:16-19&version=DLNT

When someone sins against you, they’ve sinned against you, not the Gospel. You are not the Gospel.
 
wondering, it is possible. Stove is interested in making the ToS which will be our foundation to be consistent with the Word of God for believers in Covenant. He can use your executive secretary skills when the time comes. Praise God.
Yes. Everything we learn in life comes in handy!
 
I said nothing of the sort.
Why did you even suggest such a thing?
Why are you doing exactly what you say you want to curtail?
That's not what I'm getting at, Jim. Knowing your intelligence level, I honestly feel you are being deliberately facetious now.

In the post I reference you asked if we don't allow members to point out error. The fact is, when we see what we perceive to be in error, it is our Christian duty to point it out. What is not our Christian duty is to do so with snippy, condescending, snarly, overbearing, rude, or otherwise similar attitude. What we are called to do by Scripture is to point out the error with love, respect, kindness, gentleness, humility, and so on. The ToS is not intended to be used to censor what is said but how it is said. That's the whole purpose of working toward unity.

What we're after is to make others feel welcomed and not condemned. We can't bring people to Christ if we're putting them down. I for one was brought into the fold in part because of the kindness, respect, and acceptance my Christian neighbor showed toward me. God placed the two of us on path to make that happen.

Here are a few references that I feel express what we're trying to achieve.

Romans 12:10 NKJV
Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;

Romans 12:14-16 NKJV
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

Hebrews 12:14-15 NKJV
Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;

1 Peter 5:1-3 NKJV
The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;

Philippians 2:3-4 NKJV
Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.

Romans 14:19 NKJV
Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.

Is it possible that maybe you're dealing with what Stovebolts was talking about? When you respond to something that you feel strongly about, I have noticed that you do so with great enthusiasm which is admirable but you tend to come across with a touch of arrogance, if I may use that term, rather than kindness. I'm beginning to wonder if maybe you do it habitually without even realizing it.

I am not immune to this myself but as I get older I seem to be mellowing out quite a bit from what I was rather than getting more embedded in my ways.
 
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I have no issue Paul preached AMONG the Gentiles and not TO the Gentiles, for this priest-turned apostle knew the Scriptures back and forth.
Paul was never a priest.
Priests came exclusively from the tribe of Levi. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul preached the Gospel to the Gentiles; that was his calling.

Rom 15:15-16 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written more boldly to you on some points, as reminding you, because of the grace given to me by God, that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.
Gal 2:7 ...the gospel for the uncircumcised (those are Gentiles) had been committed to me,
as the gospel for the circumcised
(those are Jews) was to Peter
 
I honestly feel you are being deliberately facetious now.
You are honestly mistaken.
It is very frustrating to me that no matter how I try to state my concern, it is consistently misconstrued or even ignored.
What we are called to do by Scripture is to point out the error with love, respect, kindness, gentleness, humility, and so on. The ToS is not intended to be used to censor what is said but how it is said. That's the whole purpose of working toward unity.
Physician heal thyself.
Here's your comment to me: "You mean it is impossible to point out what you see as error without getting snippy? "
And my response is still: "I said nothing of the sort. Why did you even suggest such a thing?"

Your comment is insulting.
 
Verse 49 states that man/Adam had "borne the image of the earthy." Yet, Genesis states the [we] are "made" in the image of God (1:26).
So, here we have what seems a contradiction.

No contradiction.

Verse 49 -

And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 1 Corinthians 15:49


It doesn’t say Adam had borne the image of the earthly.

It says we have borne the image of the man of dust, earthly man.


Adam was created as a son of God.


He was sinless until he disobeyed God.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12


JLB
 
...or as Strong defines the word, "missing the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The glory of God (or the glory that is God.)
I used to believe early when after I was saved because I was taught this from the pulpit that man/Adam was created sinless, was holy, and innocent before he disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But as I learned more and more through the years how to study, and the Holy Spirit within me began to teach me things about this "so-great salvation" that contradicted at times the teachings from the pulpit and Home Bible-Study instructors, I found myself in a peculiar situation. Do I believe what I am hearing, or do I believe the Scripture and the anointing that was so very evident in my life and in my studies. I trusted the Word of God and what I was coming to see was indeed the building of this "so-great salvation" and the "working out of my own salvation" in my life. I hope there is something in this submission that the Lord use to also build that "mansion" in your own life. So, in consideration of James 3:11, let me begin.

I find no difference between these two Directives: The Law of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law. We find in Scripture that the existence of the Law shows us that we are indeed sinners.
A very good, clear, and concise instruction from the apostle Paul on this very thing is found in his letter to the Christians at Rome. He says:

Romans 7:7 (KJV)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Simply put, the existence of a Law shows us that we are sinners. "Thou shalt not steal" shows us we are thieves. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" shows us that we are unfaithful, and so on. We also learn early on that there is only One God, there is none like Him, and He gives His glory (of which Holiness, Righteousness, Omniscience, Omni-present, etc., are His glory.) When God created man/Adam from the dust of the ground, the man/Adam possessed no Deific Attributes. God did not give His glory to man. It is quite impossible really, as God cannot re-duplicate, transfer, share, give, any aspect of His Nature and His glory to created matter - in the case of man/Adam who was created from something God had created earlier, that is, the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:45-50 (KJV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[Verse 50 is significant, as it is relevant to this post, but its inclusion will make this post very long to explain.]

Verse 49 states that man/Adam had "borne the image of the earthy." Yet, Genesis states the [we] are "made" in the image of God (1:26).
So, here we have what seems a contradiction. Which is it? When we find a seeming contradict in Scripture what do we do? Do we take hold of that Scripture that supports our theology? Or do we ask, seek, knock, and search deeper and await God to apply His Truth so that each passage coincides and "fits" His theology? ("theology" is a compound word from two Greek words: "theos" means "God," and "[o]logy" comes from the word "logos," meaning "word" or "thought." Thus, put together means "Word of God."

So, as we consider man/Adam in his creation and apply the Law/Command of God to Adam, and the fact that the existence of [the] Law shows us we are sinners, ho does this apply to Adam? Very simple: The Law/Command of God is in the Garden showing Adam (and us) that Adam (and we) are sinners:

Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, THOU SHALT NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Applying what Paul taught about the existence of the Law in Romans 7:7, it would look like this:

ADAM: "What shall say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law (or Command): for I had not known DISOBEDIENCE, except the law had said, Thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

Adam does not and did not bear the image of God, but of the earth, and thus Paul teaches Adam was "earthy" [of the earth.] The image of God is Christ, not Adam. Adam is of the earth, earthy; the image of God is His Son, Christ - our Savior. And there is no better image of a Father than a Son.

Man/Adam was created sin-ful, or "missing the mark [of the glory of God]" and this is why he was a sinner BEFORE he sinned. Sin [disobedience] comes from sinner, sin does not come from holy. The last Adam proved this. Christ was Holy, Christ was Righteous, Christ was Sinless, He did not sin. But the first man, who bore the image of the earthy (and not of 'heaven' as 1 Cor. 15:49 states), sinned. He sinned because he was a sinner. He is not a sinner because he sinned.
You keep using the term "so-great salvation" and putting it in quotation marks.

What do you mean by that expression?
 
No contradiction.

Verse 49 -

And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 1 Corinthians 15:49


It doesn’t say Adam had borne the image of the earthly.

It says we have borne the image of the man of dust, earthly man.


Adam was created as a son of God.


He was sinless until he disobeyed God.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12


JLB

Amen!
 
No contradiction.
Verse 49 -
And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 1 Corinthians 15:49
It doesn’t say Adam had borne the image of the earthly.
It says we have borne the image of the man of dust, earthly man.
Adam was created as a son of God.
He was sinless until he disobeyed God.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12
JLB
1 Corinthians 15:42-49 (KJV)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Yes, it does.

First man is of the earth, earthy.

Sinless until he disobeyed? So you believe that sin comes from sinlessness.

God is sinless. How long before God sin since you believe that sin comes from sinlessness?

Pablo is making a comparison between the first Adam and the last Adam: Christ.

God does not give His glory to another. There is none like Him and there is only one God.

IF Adam possessed the Deific Attribute of sinlessness, he would have to possess ALL the Deific Attributes of God or he would fall short of His glory. Scripture calls that sin.

There is only TWO Persons that can stand before a Holy God and that is a Holy Son and a Holy Spirit.

You elevate man/Adam to God-status. I know what that's called.
 
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