God's plan for the Gay Agenda

[SputnikBoy]

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

I ask YOU to use YOUR God-given brain and, rather than merely posting those texts and then basking in some glory at having done so, EXPLAIN those texts and their intent to me. Thanks.

Hello? When are you going to use yours?

I may well be wrong in regard to my views on this issue and I have never said otherwise. But I'm NOT you, antitox, nor am I Relic. I'm most definitely not a Christian 'cookie' and I still rely very much on my own initiative in regard to issues such as this one. That quite possibly makes me a questionable Christian, I don't know. To be frank, I really don't care any more. I'm not here to win a Christian popularity contest. I just happen to have come across a couple of Christian people in my life who have been seriously and negatively affected simply because they confessed to having an attraction for the same gender. They were/are good and decent people and no print from a book (the Bible or otherwise) is suddenly going to turn them into something detestable ...not to ME anyway.

Are you closing your eyes when something is shown to you? Now what is it you can't discern about this text?

[quote:fa13b]26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman; burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

So, I'm to direct my 'gay' friends to the above scripture, eh? "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections." WHAT cause, precisely, has God given up my friends unto vile affections? I honestly don't understand. Call me dumb if you wish but please humor me and explain to me why this is so. An explanation of this text may also assist others who might be as dumb as I am.

My friends are Christians - whether YOU have a problem with that or not, antitox - and they are WELL aware of those scriptures that Christians constantly bring up to condemn them. It's a Christian misconception that putting the guilt-trip on someone will magically change them. So, yes antitox, I think I AM using my God-given brain in a very logical manner here.

Not that I NEED to present this fact yet again, I WILL do so. To my knowledge neither friend has ever had a sexual experience with another and I doubt that either will do so in the foreseeable future. NOT that it's any of my business anyway. So far they claim to merely having a (sexual) attraction for the same gender as well as a (sexual) aversion toward the opposite gender. This is not something that they willed on themselves. In fact, both have expressed their desire to be 'normal' ...whatever that may mean. So far the condemning scriptures that Christians persistently hurl at 'homosexuality' has not changed their particular orientation. Surprise, surprise.

Now if you are so clueless about this, then that explains why you think gay is ok.

Clueless? Who do you think you're talking to? Whether or not I think that 'gay' is okay has never been expressed or discussed by me, antitox. I have never pushed the 'gay agenda' that you and others keep accusing me (and others) of doing. These are strawmen arguments that have nothing to do with where I might be coming from. And what I may or may not 'think' is truly no one else's business.

It would be simple ignorance. You folks amaze me that you go blind every time someone puts truth in front of you.

Oh my. If I had a mind to - and I don't - I could apply scriptural texts that condemn condemnation of others, hypocrisy, pride, legalism (do you keep the Sabbath, by the way, or is that legalism?), greed, materialism, lying, etc. to you guys. Really ...who is blind? ALL of us to a degree?

And when that happens, you say you need to "break down the text." If God came down and told you personally, you probably wouldn't listen because you are closed to it.

I still request that those particular texts be broken down and applied to those friends of mine who merely have an 'orientation' toward the same gender. If this is too difficult for you to do then just say so.

It's a sick sick world.

Yes, it is. But greed, SELF, and stupidity are the main reasons for this state of affairs. Condemnation of homosexual orientation is merely a 'cover' for Christians to participate in any or all of the above and think of themselves as 'holy'. And THAT is truly sickening! [/quote:fa13b]

 

[Kefka]

Sputnikboy...

This is a christian forum... seriously it is. Take a look at the URL even. Now that that's out of the way, when a topic regarding homosexuality is made... it's obvious that there will be negativity towards it because it's a christian forum. Christians have expressed their views on the subject, and you continue to get more and more "bent out of shape," and are borderline insulting. If you can't handle an opinion maturely... you shouldn't participate in the conversation. If you think you can deal with others' opinions, then deal with it! I would hate to see this topic closed because of a few people's immature behavior.

 

[Windozer]

Precisely, however when someone addresses what has already been said... it is proper to reply,

I don't think it is. There comes a time (especially for me) to walk away from such foolishness. But in so doing that, I do it letting you know that nothing any of you have said has served to change my mind. I would not like to give you the impression that when I pull away from discussions such as this one, that you have had any success at changing the way I think about this issue.

The only reason that I have continued to participate in this discussion is to let you know I do not agree with you, and I never will.

Now with that information continue to your hearts content attempting to set us (poor uninformed people) straight.

 

[antitox]

I'm most definitely not a Christian 'cookie' and I still rely very much on my own initiative in regard to issues such as this one.

I'm not a Christian "cookie" either, but I do understand the simplicity of the bible.

That quite possibly makes me a questionable Christian, I don't know. To be frank, I really don't care any more. I'm not here to win a Christian popularity contest. I just happen to have come across a couple of Christian people in my life who have been seriously and negatively affected simply because they confessed to having an attraction for the same gender. They were/are good and decent people and no print from a book (the Bible or otherwise) is suddenly going to turn them into something detestable ...not to ME anyway.

Neither I nor anyone else here that I know of, is against the person. We are against the sin, and are especially against the justification of it. Everytime these threads start, the liberal side claims that we are condemning someone. That is so far from the truth. We get into these ridiculous arguments because any true bible believer will oppose the lie of justifying homosexual behavior. If you EVER get to where you start talking truth and stop saying that we're condemning, you might discover that we aren't so "mean" after all. The furor over this honestly makes me wonder how many closet-gays we have on this board.

So, I'm to direct my 'gay' friends to the above scripture, eh?

I'm not talking to them, nor am I referring you to say anything to them, but I'm talking to you.

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections." WHAT cause, precisely, has God given up my friends unto vile affections? I honestly don't understand. Call me dumb if you wish but please humor me and explain to me why this is so. An explanation of this text may also assist others who might be as dumb as I am.

Sure. On some occasions in the OT, God would allow people to be "sated" with their sin. In other words, He would allow them to be filled to the full; gorged with what they wanted so that they would sicken themselves in it. In the New Testament, Paul would say that he would turn them over to satan for the destruction of the flesh.

My friends are Christians - whether YOU have a problem with that or not, antitox - and they are WELL aware of those scriptures that Christians constantly bring up to condemn them. It's a Christian misconception that putting the guilt-trip on someone will magically change them. So, yes antitox, I think I AM using my God-given brain in a very logical manner here.

I have never gone out and confronted gays with any kind of condemning speech. You simply assume that as you do other things. On this board, however, people should know better about these things than to justify them; should they not?

Not that I NEED to present this fact yet again, I WILL do so. To my knowledge neither friend has ever had a sexual experience with another and I doubt that either will do so in the foreseeable future. NOT that it's any of my business anyway. So far they claim to merely having a (sexual) attraction for the same gender as well as a (sexual) aversion toward the opposite gender. This is not something that they willed on themselves. In fact, both have expressed their desire to be 'normal' ...whatever that may mean. So far the condemning scriptures that Christians persistently hurl at 'homosexuality' has not changed their particular orientation. Surprise, surprise.

Just because you have someone that's having trouble with it is no excuse whatsoever to claim it's ok. Now if someone is being mean to them, that's not right. But if someone was being nice to them and presented the truth, then it is wrong to claim they are condemning.

Clueless? Who do you think you're talking to? Whether or not I think that 'gay' is okay has never been expressed or discussed by me, antitox. I have never pushed the 'gay agenda' that you and others keep accusing me (and others) of doing. These are strawmen arguments that have nothing to do with where I might be coming from. And what I may or may not 'think' is truly no one else's business.

If you are not pushing the gay agenda, then what brings you to their defense when nobody here is against the person? Just the sin and its justification. You still aren't hearing what is said.

Oh my. If I had a mind to - and I don't - I could apply scriptural texts that condemn condemnation of others, hypocrisy, pride, legalism (do you keep the Sabbath, by the way, or is that legalism?), greed, materialism, lying, etc. to you guys. Really ...who is blind? ALL of us to a degree?

Missed again as usual. The no condemnation scriptures apply to the person, not the deed.

I still request that those particular texts be broken down and applied to those friends of mine who merely have an 'orientation' toward the same gender. If this is too difficult for you to do then just say so.

the men, leaving the natural use of the woman; burned in their lust one toward another; men with men;working that which is unseemly

This excerpt shouldn't be hard for anyone. "Men with men?" Think about it. After giving up the "natural use of a woman" so that men could be with men, is a little obvious. I know that you and others would seek out some kind of loophole in the scripture to justify some alternate understanding of it. But you aren't going to convince someone who really knows what the bible says.

Yes, it is. But greed, SELF, and stupidity are the main reasons for this state of affairs. Condemnation of homosexual orientation is merely a 'cover' for Christians to participate in any or all of the above and think of themselves as 'holy'. And THAT is truly sickening!

:-?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sputnikboy...

This is a christian forum... seriously it is. Take a look at the URL even.

Please Kefla ...don't patronize me.

Now that that's out of the way, when a topic regarding homosexuality is made... it's obvious that there will be negativity towards it because it's a christian forum.

Yes, of course. The witch-hunt against homosexuals is the favorite pastime of many Christians. I refer you to one of your previous posts, Kefla, where you freely admitted that YOU PERSONALLY had a problem with what you perceived to be homosexual behavior. Without any prompting from the holy scriptures this did not sit right with you. So this is a personal issue for you more so than a scriptural issue. And this is but ONE of the points I make in regard to this issue ...it's the homophobic individual who is simply using the scriptures as a means to support that homophobia.

Christians have expressed their views on the subject, and you continue to get more and more "bent out of shape," and are borderline insulting.

I might just prompt you that I am also a Christian. And, if I appear to be insulting or 'bent out of shape' at all it's because I see the hypocrisy behind the remarks of ANY Christian who condemns another whose 'sins' are seen to be of greater weight than their own. There is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10). A reading of John 8:1-11 might also be in order for some on this thread.

If you can't handle an opinion maturely... you shouldn't participate in the conversation.

Forgive me if I've come across as immature. Don't use such terminology, however, simply because my opinions on this issue are not necessarily mainstream popular or in accordance with your own. I shudder to think that, at some point in time, I just might just add 'hostility' to the other flaws of character that I possess. Being a Christian doesn't necessarily mean that we have to forgo an understanding or a healthy curiosity as to where others might be coming from. Human beings are complex pieces of machinery and I thank God that He - or so I keep being told - made them that way. Adam and Steve? I guess He made them too!

Once again, MY take on this issue is: I don't believe that one's sexual orientation is of itself necessarily good or evil. It's just a sexual orientation, no more no less. I DO believe, however, that all human beings are inherently disobedient, regardless of one's gender preference. Point me to a scripture that says that ALL human beings were born with a desire for the opposite sex and you'll make a convert out of me. Maybe.

If you think you can deal with others' opinions, then deal with it! I would hate to see this topic closed because of a few people's immature behavior.

Responding to another in a patronizing tone is in and of itself an immature trait. Having said that ...I KNOW that I'm quite capable of being immature at times but hopefully I'll rise above that kind of thing when discussing this particular issue. And, unless you get SOME opposition to your take on this issue, what would be the point of keeping the topic open anyway? We could all agree with each other, slap each other on the back, bask in our own holiness, and go home.

Oftentimes it's the 'adversarial' aspect of a debate that keeps it interesting my friend!

 

[Windozer]

Wounds to be healed

Jan 31 2006

Letter to the Editor.

We as a community have good reason to be outraged that our sidewalks and streets should witness grown men assaulting our children with lewd words and predatory intent
So without in any way detracting from our legitimate horror at these scenarios I want to remind us of a series of articles that appeared in your paper six weeks ago indicating that in Canada fully one-third of us are walking around with sexual wounds that we have received in the "safety" of our own homes inflicted by "fathers, step-fathers, friends, relatives and guardians."
And many of these walking wounded end up in our prison system and in addictive lifestyles of one kind or another. And so the painful, destructive and deadly cycle not only continues, but gets worse.
It becomes more and more difficult to deny that there is a gaping wound at the heart of our Canadian society; that an alarming number of our families are in crises. The upshot of this is that the ramifications upon society is far greater than that of Homosexuality.
Helpful and necessary as they may be government intervention, new legislation and counselling programs can never heal the deep issues of heart and spirit. These require redemption, new birth and resurrection.
My hope is that 2006 will be a year in which we acknowledge our deep spiritual need.
"Now - here is my secret: I tell it to you with an openness of heart that I doubt I shall ever achieve again. My secret is that I need God - that I am sick and can no longer make it alone."

 

[Kefka]

Sputnikboy, I wasn't patronizing... I was telling you what I thought of your behavior, if that merits the title "immature," I'll take it. And you know very well that I wasn't calling you immature because we disagree, but because of the growing hostility. I will however admit that the first line of my last post was done out of irritation, and I apologize.

Windozer,

Tell me, when have any of us downplayed offenses such as murder, and rape? Just because we are talking about an issue that we feel to be important, doesn't mean that "we think murder, rape, gluttony and materialism are fine." You are missing the point, my point is that homosexuality is an important issue that should not just be shrugged off. From what I've read, your point is that there are other sins that we shouldn't just ignore because homosexuality is prominent, I agree but who shrugs off murder. Your arguing against a point that none of us made.

 

[Windozer]

Windozer,

Tell me, when have any of us downplayed offenses such as murder, and rape? Just because we are talking about an issue that we feel to be important, doesn't mean that "we think murder, rape, gluttony and materialism are fine." You are missing the point, my point is that homosexuality is an important issue that should not just be shrugged off. From what I've read, your point is that there are other sins that we shouldn't just ignore because homosexuality is prominent, I agree but who shrugs off murder. Your arguing against a point that none of us made.

The only point that I am (intentionally) missing is your point, and that does not bother me at all. And as far as arguing goes that is something I do not have a problem leaving up to you. You appear to enjoy that kind of thing. As for me I have found that kind of activity rather fruitless.

But....like I said continue to your hearts content attempting to set us (poor uninformed people) straight.

 

[Kefka]

You see, for someone who doesn't think it's ethical to reply when someone addresses you... well you sure do reply every time. And for someone who says that we/I just keep repeating ourselves/myself, you sure do continue to say the exact same thing over and over which is "You're never going to change my mind so stop repeating yourself" or "Stop repeating yourself, it's not going to change anything." etc. Continuing to reply with messages that are peppered with sarcasm, and do not contribute to the topic at hand show that you have no interest in discussing and only getting the last word. FURTHERMORE, how was I arguing with you? You are not making any sense, in my last post I did not try to disprove your point in any way, shape or form.

You said you agree with Drew, who stated that the "gay agenda needs to be fought, but so do other sins such as gluttony and materialism" or something to that effect. I agree completely, so what exactly is your point of view? I have seen you post in other topics, and have come to the conclusion (based on your continuing tasteless, sarcastic and hostile posts) that you have joined this discussion board not to discuss but to cause trouble. You, my friend are indeed poorly uninformed... why else would you try to argue with someone who has more or less said that they agree with you?

By the way, how does intentionally missing a point prove anything other than narrow-mindedness?

 

[Windozer]

Hi Kefka,

Some times I just get a kick at how easy it is to post a comment (that pushes someones button) and sit back and observe the reactions. At times I find that entertaining.

I Sight
========

Eyeglasses or contact lenses do not change what you see;
they change how you see it.

Many times you must change how you see something
before that thing is changed in your life.

If how you see it doesn't change, then IT will never change.

It is not a matter of denying the reality of your and/or the situation
but a matter of seeing beyond the situation.

Don't deny the reality of the situation.
Deny the finality of your situation.

 

[Kefka]

Hi Kefka,

Some times I just get a kick at how easy it is post a comment (that pushes someones button) and sit back and observe the reactions. At times I find that entertaining.

Which proves my point that you are only here to cause trouble, and hopefully everyone else can see it too. You didn't 'push my button,' you left me confused by posting something that made absolutely no sense, it was the equivalent of,

You: I like Ice cream!

Me: Me too

You: I disagree and you'll never change that.

But you also showed your true colours. You contribute nothing to this conversation which leads me to believe that your opinions are not worth reading because they are not coming from an intellectual, spiritual or in fact any standpoint, and if I were a bigger man I wouldn't read them. Sadly, I will continue to read them and respond to you, but oh well... I will be forgiven.

I Sight
========

Eyeglasses or contact lenses do not change what you see;
they change how you see it.

Many times you must change how you see something
before that thing is changed in your life.

If how you see it doesn't change, then IT will never change.

It is not a matter of denying the reality of your and/or the situation
but a matter of seeing beyond the situation.

Don't deny the reality of the situation.
Deny the finality of your situation.

Although true, it's irrelevant. If it's not, I await your elaboration and/or sarcastic comment 8-) And good luck with pushing my buttons :-D

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Kefka,

Some times I just get a kick at how easy it is to post a comment (that pushes someones button) and sit back and observe the reactions. At times I find that entertaining.

However, we don't. That in itself is an admission to your real intent here and is grounds for suspension or termination. Up 'til now, I have no real issues with you (and hope the same of you with me) Consider this a friendly warning. 8-)

Peace,
Vic

 

[Windozer]

Hi Kefka,

Some times I just get a kick at how easy it is to post a comment (that pushes someones button) and sit back and observe the reactions. At times I find that entertaining.

However, we don't. That in itself is an admission to your real intent here and is grounds for suspension or termination. Up 'til now, I have no real issues with you (and hope the same of you with me) Consider this a friendly warning. 8-)

Peace,
Vic

Thank you Vic,

I am sorry you see it this way. I can not see how you could determine when I do that and when I am not. This message is not meant to cause problems, and as such it is likely to be my last one on this board. I am beside myself that my last post was removed which clearly showed my intent.

You know I have found it odd how as a Christian I have had to learn that other peoples problems are not mine, and I have had to reach a place where they do not bother me, or if they do find the need to tap my resource (Jesus) to restore a right spirit within me)

If one is ever to obtain unity among all of the adversity among us we are going to need this kind of help. I have seen many situations where I have asked (my self) am I the only one who needs this kind of help from the Lord. My problem with continuing here (which is not personal) is that it appears the management is not interested in high lighting the need for this kind of intervention in our lives. Yet allows "fruitless" argument after argument to go on and on, allowing others to be down right cruel, as has been alluded to in another thread.

Quite frankly I have been on other boards that have members that this site would not allow, who are far more civil than those on this board.

You are the Captain of this ship. you have spoken, and you chose to do it publicly as opposed to privately. and I see no possibility of this situation changing any time soon.

I will not be returning to read any responses to this post. I am now officially out of here, wishing you no ill will.

May God Bless you Vic.

 

[Scott]

The rules here aren't a reflection of any one person, they are agreed upon by all of us on the Admin/Moderating Staff.