Discussion in 'Apologetics' started by Cyberseeker, Mar 11, 2017.
By respecting the historical integrity of the gospels.
Again: Gospels are not Histories.
You are attempting to impose a 21st century, western concept into a 1st century, middle eastern, literary form where it doesn't belong. You're trying to hammer a literary square peg into a literary round hole.
The consistent result of that type of endeavor is garbage.
But, if it makes you happy, enjoy!
It doesn't make any difference whether it was one or two.
At the first temple cleansing did the Jews say, or did they not say, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple" ? If so, take a history lesson then do the math.
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
John included those words of the Jews in his report of the cleansing of the temple; Matthew, Mark and Luke did not.
That is ALL you can say about it.
That Matthew, Mark and Luke did not include those words in his Gospel only proves that they did not include those words and nothing more.
Your "proof" is no proof at all.
And the Gospels aren't math; they're literature.
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)
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So, the Jews did not say what John reported they said? Rather than minimizing John, I prefer to believe what he said - that Jesus cleared the temple during Passover AD 27, then cleared it again when Matthew, Mark, and Luke reported it - 3rd April AD 30.
What are you talking about? Nobody said that.
John didn't give any dates. That's your brainfart.
The Gospels record actual historical events. How bout dat?
At the first temple cleansing did the Jews say, or did they not say, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple" ? You seem to be saying that they never said that (or never meant it) and that it is no proof of the gospels being a reliable historical record.
Really? Are you not aware that any Jewish feast day can be converted to our calendar?
I can't say Ive ever seen one of those? Were you referring to Wondering's whirlwind smilie?
I get brain farts. AKA senior moments.
I'd buy that.
That's probably closer to what I mean when I say historical. So I'll try to be more clear on that. BTW, I do agree with you on the chronology stuff - that's it's not important to the overall story. Sequence isn't the point.
Sequence is definitely NOT the point.
So, when someone attempts to extract an answer to the question of whether there was one or two temple cleansing based on the assumption of strictly accurate chronology in the Gospels, he is building his argument on a vacuum. The accurate chronology does not exist.
iakov the fool
I won't argue that point further except to say it's certainly a possibility that there were two. It's plausible. But I like the challenge to my position because it makes me think about it more and research more. That's the best part of discussions. Having one's views challenged and getting to defend them and then, on one's own time, reexamine them. That's what I do. It's how I learn and grow. ;)
Rabbit trail? Definitely.
It's not important to the core facts of the Gospel and is just something to speculate about without gaining any useful insight.
When I taught Bible college classes, I encouraged my students to ask what I called the basic theological question: "So what?"
If I can't put it one the road, it's not that important.
What are important are matters of eternal life and eternal death.
iakov the fool
Except that rabbit trails are fine for those hunting rabbits. ;) The thing is, it is germane to the OP (always wanted to use that word). So in that sense it's not a rabbit trail. But from your angle I can see where it is.
The So What? question is probably the most important question we can ask i think. If we can't answer that, then the original question isn't that important. Or something like that.
Separate names with a comma.