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Nope:
Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are both about Roman legions stalking the holy land in 66-73AD.
Daniel 11:36 is about Rome in the first century BC.
2Thess 2:4 is about Judaism's violent revolt against Rome from 66-73AD.


With regard to 2 Thessalonians 2:4, I agree with you in the historical sense. However, these physical, external "outward" events serve as "examples" and "shadows" which represent unseen 'spiritual [heavenly] principles' written for our admonition:

1 Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened to them [Israel] as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."


thus,

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that YOU ARE the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which TEMPLE YOU ARE."


and,

2 Thessalonians 2:4 "Who [the man of sin] opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in THE TEMPLE of God, shewing himself that he is God."



We are told that the "Man of Sin" sits in the "Temple of God", claiming to be God.

If YOU and ME are the "Temple of God", and the "man of sin" sits in the "Temple of God", then WHERE IS THE MAN OF SIN SITTING? If WE are the TEMPLE, what options do we have?

Our CARNAL MIND (flesh man, old 'first man' Adam, ego, prideful self, etc.) is enmity against God, and is the 'man of sin' - of course, since WE are the TEMPLE of God:

Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."


As Paul tells us above, "The CARNAL MIND IS ENMITY AGAINST GOD!" The CARNAL MIND OPPOSES AND EXALTS HIMSELF AGAINST GOD! The carnal mind is the carnal, FLESH MAN - the BEAST WITHIN! THE MAN OF SIN! The old, FIRST MAN ADAM; that must be dethroned and replaced within by the SECOND MAN ADAM - Christ!

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one MAN SIN entered into the world, and death by sin"
 
With regard to 2 Thessalonians 2:4, I agree with you in the historical sense. However, these physical, external "outward" events serve as "examples" and "shadows" which represent unseen 'spiritual [heavenly] principles' written for our admonition:

1 Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened to them [Israel] as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."


thus,

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that YOU ARE the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which TEMPLE YOU ARE."


and,

2 Thessalonians 2:4 "Who [the man of sin] opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in THE TEMPLE of God, shewing himself that he is God."



We are told that the "Man of Sin" sits in the "Temple of God", claiming to be God.

If YOU and ME are the "Temple of God", and the "man of sin" sits in the "Temple of God", then WHERE IS THE MAN OF SIN SITTING? If WE are the TEMPLE, what options do we have?

Our CARNAL MIND (flesh man, old 'first man' Adam, ego, prideful self, etc.) is enmity against God, and is the 'man of sin' - of course, since WE are the TEMPLE of God:

Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."


As Paul tells us above, "The CARNAL MIND IS ENMITY AGAINST GOD!" The CARNAL MIND OPPOSES AND EXALTS HIMSELF AGAINST GOD! The carnal mind is the carnal, FLESH MAN - the BEAST WITHIN! THE MAN OF SIN! The old, FIRST MAN ADAM; that must be dethroned and replaced within by the SECOND MAN ADAM - Christ!

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one MAN SIN entered into the world, and death by sin"


If YOU and ME are the "Temple of God", and the "man of sin" sits in the "Temple of God", then WHERE IS THE MAN OF SIN SITTING? If WE are the TEMPLE, what options do we have?
It doesn't get any more carnal than to suggest that a "man" of sin can "sit" [occupy] another man, let alone all the Christians collectively.

On top of all that, This man of sin is going to somehow make God leave His dwelling place!


This is by far the biggest edited I have ever witnessed in a Forum!


JLB
 
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It doesn't get any more carnal than to suggest that a "man" of sin can "sit" [occupy] another man, let alone all the Christians collectively.

On top of all that, This man of sin is going to somehow make God leave His dwelling place!


This is by far the biggest nonsense I have ever witnessed in a Forum!


JLB
The interpretation of Scripture you follow has God dwelling in a temple being use for animal sacrifices again. Why ever did He send Jesus to the Cross?

Hebrews chapter 9 & 10 are some good reading
 
The interpretation of Scripture you follow has God dwelling in a temple being use for animal sacrifices again. Why ever did He send Jesus to the Cross?


I never said God dwells in the third Temple.

Those are your words.


JLB
 
It doesn't get any more carnal than to suggest that a "man" of sin can "sit" [occupy] another man, let alone all the Christians collectively.

On top of all that, This man of sin is going to somehow make God leave His dwelling place!


This is by far the most twisted interpretation of scripture I have ever witnessed in a Forum!


JLB
 
With regard to 2 Thessalonians 2:4, I agree with you in the historical sense. However, these physical, external "outward" events serve as "examples" and "shadows" which represent unseen 'spiritual [heavenly] principles' written for our admonition

I understand your point and agree with it generally. However, the prophecy in question sits within a particular scriptural context which must be acknowledged in order to derive the underlying principle which can then be applied to our own lives.

The principle you are illustrating can be applied at the personal level, as you have shown, but it can also be applied at a corporate group level. It is at this group level that the principle has its real eschatological significance.
 
Not one word is mentioned about the event of 70 AD in Jesus" Olivet Discourse, which vegans in Matthew 24:4 - 25:46.
Somewhere around here is a thread where it has been demonstrated that your understanding of the Olivet Discourse is charitably suspect.


Fixed it! :) reba
 
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The interpretation of Scripture you follow has God dwelling in a temple being use for animal sacrifices again. Why ever did He send Jesus to the Cross?


I never said God dwells in the third Temple.

Those are your words.


JLB

OK stuff can get confusing vie the threads... Cus i sure thought that is what you were saying...
 
Originally posted by JLB,

It doesn't get any more carnal than to suggest that a "man" of sin can "sit" [occupy] another man, let alone all the Christians collectively.

It is not ANOTHER MAN JLB - it is YOU.... and it is ME! On an individual level, each of us are a temple. You are the "man of sin" within your own temple. I am "the man of sin" within my temple. If an entire religion is an apostate religion and has fallen away, it is because "each member" has the "man of sin" ruling within themselves - thus the "man of sin" rules that "body" of worshipers collectively.

The man of sin is ruling within everyone who cries, "Lord, Lord,..." They know that HE is supposed to be LORD in their life, the message of HIS LORDSHIP has reached them, but they still continue to take their OWN WAY, rather than God's, and try to operate in the Kingdom on their OWN TERMS. These "Workers of iniquity" would work according to their own designs and programs, THEIR OWN INTERPRETATIONS OF SCRIPTURE, their own plans and objectives, and forget, forsake, cast aside, disannul the laws of God, the ways of His Spirit, the principles of His Kingdom. They boast in their OWN works, for they have prophesied, cast out devils, held large meetings, touched many lives, and done mighty things - BUT NOT ACCORDING TO THE WAYS OF GOD. They refuse to follow the leadings of the Holy Spirit, but instead follow the ways and doctrines of men. They boot Christ off of the Throne in their hearts (the Temple) and instead sit on that throne themselves, following their own carnal beliefs instead of listening to God's Word.

Rather than ministering by the law of the Spirit of life, much of their ministry, teaching, prophesying, praying, healings, etc. are but a cloak to conceal a servitude to the same old flesh and ego of the carnal nature as they seek a following. They seek to build a name for themselves, and on a corporate level; a kingdom, to usurp control over other men's lives, and to fleece the people of their hard earned money to support their many schemes to save the nation, or convert the world. They would prophesy or lay hands on anyone they think will follow after them, or fill their coffers with money, and forget the admonition to "lay hands suddenly on no man" (1 Timothy 5:22).

The point is clear, all our so-called spiritual works, if done outside the law (ways) of God, if done out of OUR OWN zeal and initiative, and not under the leadership and control of HIS SPIRIT, become a manifestation of lawlessness.

It is the cunning, craftiness, subtleness, deceitfulness, treachery, and wickedness of OUR OWN CARNAL MIND that will be uncovered, revealed, exposed by the Spirit's dealings.

You JLB, for instance, refuse to believe that WE ARE THE TEMPLE (not "A" temple; but "THE" Temple - the ONLY Temple), and instead believe there are TWO Temples - and will even be THREE Temples in the future. However, the Word of God speaks of ONE TEMPLE (Greek=NAOS). This is a perfect example of how YOU are usurping God's place on the throne in your heart. Your carnal mind (pride, ego, stubborn will, etc) will not let go of YOUR OWN ideas about the Temple. You ignore what the Scriptures say because you believe YOUR ideas are correct, and you do not let the Scriptures speak for themselves. Thus, you are taking over as the 'man of sin' (your carnal SELF), and removing God and His Word from the throne in the Temple (which YE ARE).

It's not only you, WE ALL DO IT at various times in our lives. We, each of us (the old, first MAN Adam within each one of us) is the man of sin. Until we allow the SECOND MAN ADAM (Christ) to rule within, WE ARE the MAN OF SIN in the Temple. It is not a difficult concept to understand. It is about vanity; SELF-LOVE - the all-natural opiate.

Since WE (each of us, individually) are the Temple, there are only TWO options with regard to who can rule in the Temple - US or CHRIST! No one else. Satan only encourages and tempts us to TAKE OVER THE THRONE 'instead of' Christ (the Greek word for 'anti' means "instead of" - i.e. - 'instead of' Christ, or anti-christ). When I take over the throne within INSTEAD OF Christ, I become antichrist ('instead of' Christ). When you take over the throne within INSTEAD OF Christ, you become antichrist ('instead of' Christ).

This is what the "man of sin" - "antichrist" - "the beasts of Revelation 13" - is all about. This is what Salvation is all about. DYING TO THE FLESH (Christ destroying the "MAN OF SIN" within you, and within me; with the BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING - WITHIN). It's not about some "external" "outward" "physical" doomsday, rapture fantasy. That's all nonsense. Stop "looking without" for the man of sin - and start "looking within." That is where he is. He will continue to sit and rule in the Temple where he ought not until he is REVEALED! He will NEVER be revealed until you search in the right place - WITHIN YOURSELF! Ask yourself: "Is Christ really ruling within - or is it 'myself' - this wretched, flesh man of sin, ruling within instead? Which is it?"
 
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It is not ANOTHER MAN JLB - it is YOU.... and it is ME! On an individual level, each of us are a temple. You are the "man of sin" within your own temple. I am "the man of sin" within my temple. If an entire religion is an apostate religion and has fallen away, it is because "each member" has the "man of sin" ruling within themselves - thus the "man of sin" rules that "body" of worshipers collectively.

The man of sin is ruling within everyone who cries, "Lord, Lord,..." They know that HE is supposed to be LORD in their life, the message of HIS LORDSHIP has reached them, but they still continue to take their OWN WAY, rather than God's, and try to operate in the Kingdom on their OWN TERMS. These "Workers of iniquity" would work according to their own designs and programs, THEIR OWN INTERPRETATIONS OF SCRIPTURE, their own plans and objectives, and forget, forsake, cast aside, disannul the laws of God, the ways of His Spirit, the principles of His Kingdom. They boast in their OWN works, for they have prophesied, cast out devils, held large meetings, touched many lives, and done mighty things - BUT NOT ACCORDING TO THE WAYS OF GOD. They refuse to follow the leadings of the Holy Spirit, but instead follow the ways and doctrines of men. They boot Christ off of the Throne in their hearts (the Temple) and instead sit on that throne themselves, following their own carnal beliefs instead of listening to God's Word.

Rather than ministering by the law of the Spirit of life, much of their ministry, teaching, prophesying, praying, healings, etc. are but a cloak to conceal a servitude to the same old flesh and ego of the carnal nature as they seek a following. They seek to build a name for themselves, and on a corporate level; a kingdom, to usurp control over other men's lives, and to fleece the people of their hard earned money to support their many schemes to save the nation, or convert the world. They would prophesy or lay hands on anyone they think will follow after them, or fill their coffers with money, and forget the admonition to "lay hands suddenly on no man" (1 Timothy 5:22).

The point is clear, all our so-called spiritual works, if done outside the law (ways) of God, if done out of OUR OWN zeal and initiative, and not under the leadership and control of HIS SPIRIT, become a manifestation of lawlessness.

It is the cunning, craftiness, subtleness, deceitfulness, treachery, and wickedness of OUR OWN CARNAL MIND that will be uncovered, revealed, exposed by the Spirit's dealings.

You JLB, for instance, refuse to believe that WE ARE THE TEMPLE (not "A" temple; but "THE" Temple - the ONLY Temple), and instead believe there are TWO Temples - and will even be THREE Temples in the future. However, the Word of God speaks of ONE TEMPLE (Greek=NAOS). This is a perfect example of how YOU are usurping God's place on the throne in your heart. Your carnal mind (pride, ego, stubborn will, etc) will not let go of YOUR OWN ideas about the Temple. You ignore what the Scriptures say because you believe YOUR ideas are correct, and you do not let the Scriptures speak for themselves. Thus, you are taking over as the 'man of sin' (your carnal SELF), and removing God and His Word from the throne in the Temple (which YE ARE).

It's not only you, WE ALL DO IT at various times in our lives. We, each of us (the old, first MAN Adam within each one of us) is the man of sin. Until we allow the SECOND MAN ADAM (Christ) to rule within, WE ARE the MAN OF SIN in the Temple. It is not a difficult concept to understand. It is about vanity; SELF-LOVE - the all-natural opiate.

Since WE (each of us, individually) are the Temple, there are only TWO options with regard to who can rule in the Temple - US or CHRIST! No one else. Satan only encourages and tempts us to TAKE OVER THE THRONE 'instead of' Christ (the Greek word for 'anti' means "instead of" - i.e. - 'instead of' Christ, or anti-christ). When I take over the throne within INSTEAD OF Christ, I become antichrist ('instead of' Christ). When you take over the throne within INSTEAD OF Christ, you become antichrist ('instead of' Christ).

This is what the "man of sin" - "antichrist" - "the beasts in Revelation 13" - is all about. This is what Salvation is all about. DYING TO THE FLESH (Christ destroying the "MAN OF SIN" within you, and within me; with the BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING - WITHIN). It's not about some "external" "outward" "physical" doomsday, rapture fantasy. That's all nonsense. Stop "looking without" for the man of sin - and start "looking within." That is where he is. He will continue to sit and rule in the Temple where he ought not until he is REVEALED! He will NEVER be revealed until you search in the right place - WITHIN YOURSELF! Ask yourself: "Is Christ really ruling within - or am I, this sinful, flesh man, ruling within instead? Which is it?"


Sorry Bro, That is not gonna fly!!!


Paul teaches about those subjects in Romans, especially Romans 8.

Paul Subject matter is clearly - THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...

The coming of our Lord, and the event that happen BEFORE HE COMES!

The man of sin - the son of perdition - the lawless one are all references to a MAN that will pose as Christ, that will deceive many by "SIGNS AND LYING WONDER AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN" !!!

Again I will say this as nice as I can -

YOU ARE TWISTING AND DISTORTING GOD'S WORD!!! REPENT!!!


JLB
 
There is nothing to twist JLB. The Scriptures are clear. The COMING OF CHRIST happens within:

  • Luke 17:20 "Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God DOES NOT COME with observation;
    Luke 17:21 nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU."

And we are THE Temple (not "A" temple -- but "THE" Temple -- Greek=NAOS)

  • 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
    1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."


There is no way to "spin" what Jesus and Paul have said, period. "YOU ARE the temple" means what it says..... "You are the temple." And "the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU" really does mean "the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU."

You simply don't believe Jesus or Paul. Jesus is not a dis-embodied Spirit; His many-membered body IS HIS BODY! Like I have said, you still know Christ "ONLY AFTER THE FLESH."

But believe what you will. Peace.
 
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He will appear a second time!

There is nothing to twist JLB. The Scriptures are clear. The COMING OF CHRIST happens within:


  • Luke 17:20 "Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God DOES NOT COME with observation;
    Luke 17:21 nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU."



And we are THE Temple (not "A" temple -- but "THE" Temple -- Greek=NAOS)


  • 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
    1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."



There is no way to "spin" what Jesus and Paul have said, period. "YOU ARE the temple" means what it says..... "You are the temple." And "the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU" really does mean "the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU."

You simply don't believe Jesus or Paul. Jesus is not a dis-embodied Spirit; His many-membered body IS HIS BODY! Like I have said, you still know Christ "ONLY AFTER THE FLESH."

But believe what you will. Peace.


Jesus Christ will return again Literally!



27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


When He returns, we will be gathered unto Him, and receive our glorified eternal bodies that will shine forth like the sun and will never die!

You are teaching false doctrine! Plain and simple. Please repent!


JLB
 
Re: He will appear a second time!

The word “within in the Greek is “entos, which is accurately translated “in the midst of”. So it really should be understood as Jesus saying the Kingdom of God is within your midst, or among you. In other words, wherever Jesus is, it accompanies him. What it does NOT mean is that it resides in everyone.
It does not mean inside man because of whom Jesus was addressing – the Pharisees. They rejected Jesus and his teachings.

Jesus told this same group of Pharisees that rejected him "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do” (John 8:44). [ not all the Pharisees disbelieved, a small portion of them believed Jesus].Furthermore, Jesus taught one of the Pharisees specifically that to enter the kingdom he must be born again (John 3), to have a spiritual birth, even though he was the teacher to the people of Israel.

At the last supper before his crucifixion Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God” ( Mark 14:24-25). This makes it clear that the kingdom is not on earth yet.
 
Originally posted by n2thelight,

What it does NOT mean is that it resides in everyone.

Agreed. It does not reside in ANYONE until Christ destroys that "man of sin" ruling within each one of us with the "brightness of His Coming."

Matthew 13:11 "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."


Neither Christ nor His Father are way off on planet heaven. When Christ left this earth, He did so "in the clouds," and those 'clouds' symbolize Christ's 'witnesses' whose witnesses we are:

Acts 1:9 "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."



Carefully read this passage:

Acts 1:10 "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."


Have you ever asked yourself why these "two witnesses" dressed in white apparel asked the Men of Galilee why they were "gazing UP into heaven?" Obviously, the Men of Galilee, who were looking up, were looking in the wrong place. And if "up" is NOT how Jesus ascended according to these "two witnesses," then what exactly did they mean by this statement? Exactly 'what' was the "like manner" these two spoke of - since "gazing up into heaven" was obviously NOT the manner?



Acts 1:9 "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."

What is "a cloud?"

Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Spiritual eyes see clearly who are this CLOUD of witnesses."



Luke 24:48 "And ye are witnesses of these things."


Acts 5:32 "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."


God gives of His Spirit through Him to whom He has "given all things," through Christ. Christ did not have far to go when He was "received of a cloud." You and I are that 'cloud of witnesses' who receive Him. He tells us this is so:

Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world [Greek = aion, age]. Amen."





Christ's [second] coming is when He comes to each of us and destroys the man of sin within each of us "with the brightness of His coming."


2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first [a "carrying away into Babylon = apostate Christianity"], and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [the old you and the old me]

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God [which YE ARE], shewing himself that he is God. ["Who can make war with the beast?" Revelation 13:4]

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work
[Already! Not 2,000 years later]: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of HIS MOUTH, and shall destroy with the brightness of his [second] coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan
[The dragon (Satan) gave him (the man of sin) his power, his throne, and great authority - Revelation 13:2] with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth
[the ego of self, the pride of life, and stubborn carnal mind of the old, Adamic man of sin within each of us will not yield the throne to the Holy Spirit], that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."



(Above: brackets mine)
 
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Agreed. It does not reside in ANYONE until Christ destroys that "man of sin" ruling within each one of us with the "brightness of His Coming."

Neither Christ nor His Father are way off on planet heaven. When Christ left this earth, He did so "in the clouds," and those 'clouds' symbolize Christ's 'witnesses' whose witnesses we are:

Acts 1:9 "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."



Carefully read this passage:

Acts 1:10 "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."


Have you ever asked yourself why these "two witnesses" dressed in white apparel asked the Men of Galilee why they were "gazing UP into heaven?" Obviously, the Men of Galilee, who were looking up, were looking in the wrong place. And if "up" is NOT how Jesus ascended according to these "two witnesses," then what exactly did they mean by this statement? Exactly 'what' was the "like manner" these two spoke of - since "gazing up into heaven" was obviously NOT the manner?



Acts 1:9 "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."

What is "a cloud?"

Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Spiritual eyes see clearly who are this CLOUD of witnesses."



Luke 24:48 "And ye are witnesses of these things."


Acts 5:32 "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."


Now it all makes sense!

When the Apostles were gazing up in the heavens watching Jesus ascend to heaven in the clouds, that is not really what the scripture means.

What this scripture "really" means -


  • The clouds around Jesus were really people!
  • Jesus was "not really" going up to heaven, but ascending "into" the believers!
  • The angels that were speaking to the apostles were really "witness's"!


And of course you have continually "clarified" the issue of the man of sin, whereby we now understand that Jesus didn't actually cleanse us of sin by His blood when we repent, rather Jesus destroys the "man of sin" by the brightness of His coming when He comes into the believer.


So now, with this new understanding, we don't have waste anymore time presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. Nor do when need to confess our trespasses one to another, but rather we can just simply recognize the fact that Jesus "destroyed the man of sin" so "he is no longer a problem".




Thank you "clarifying" so many mistakes the Apostles made in writing the scriptures.




JLB
 
Now it all makes sense!

When the Apostles were gazing up in the heavens watching Jesus ascend to heaven in the clouds, that is not really what the scripture means.

What this scripture "really" means -


  • The clouds around Jesus were really people!
  • Jesus was "not really" going up to heaven, but ascending "into" the believers!
  • The angels that were speaking to the apostles were really "witness's"!


And of course you have continually "clarified" the issue of the man of sin, whereby we now understand that Jesus didn't actually cleanse us of sin by His blood when we repent, rather Jesus destroys the "man of sin" by the brightness of His coming when He comes into the believer.


So now, with this new understanding, we don't have waste anymore time presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. Nor do when need to confess our trespasses one to another, but rather we can just simply recognize the fact that Jesus "destroyed the man of sin" so "he is no longer a problem".




Thank you "clarifying" so many mistakes the Apostles made in writing the scriptures.




JLB


I'm just trying to help you out JLB. Why would you rather follow the theories of Darby and Scofield, the pagan traditions of the apostate church, or the "Dungeons & Dragons" fantasies of Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, rather than following the plain words of Jesus and Paul, who tell you that "the kingdom of God is within YOU," and inform you that "YE ARE the temple?" They are plain, straightforward, simple passages to comprehend.



Consider this:

Revelation 11:19 "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament."

JLB, The temple of God, which is the many-membered body of Christ, is opened in heaven (i.e. - the spiritual realm.) The ark of His covenant is then seen in the temple (i.e. - in and among the saints who make up the body of Christ.) In Revelation 11:19 (above) we see the ark of God's covenant, including the articles within it, in and among Christ's body (the temple).

The temple of God is the body of Christ. The life, the power, the nature of every son of God is Christ in you:

Colossians 1:26 "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory."



Christ Himself is the ark; The ark is Christ in you! You are the temple, the Most Holy Place represents your heart. You are, in union with Him, both the temple and the ark; HE is the indwelling life and reality. The temple opened and the ark seen is the manifestation of Christ out from His many-membered body. The heavenly manna, His own incorruptible life, is within you! The tables of the law, His own divine nature, is within you! Aaron's rod that budded, His own divine appointment and priesthood, is within you! (See Revelation 20:6)



The temple of God, the body of Christ, is open and revealed. When the temple [the body of Christ] is opened, the ark of the covenant can be seen! The ark is Christ in you! This temple isn't some inanimate "heavenly building" with a foundation and walls made with bricks and stone found in a "heavenly" rock quarry - the temple is made of "living stones" - i.e. - PEOPLE!

1 Peter 2:5 "...you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house."




Do you not get this JLB?
 
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I'm just trying to help you out JLB. Why would you rather follow the theories of Darby and Scofield, the pagan traditions of the apostate church, or the "Dungeons & Dragons" fantasies of Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, rather than following the plain words of Jesus and Paul, who tell you that "the kingdom of God is within YOU," and inform you that "YE ARE the temple?" They are plain, straightforward, simple passages to comprehend.



Consider this:

Revelation 11:19 "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament."

JLB, The temple of God, which is the many-membered body of Christ, is opened in heaven (i.e. - the spiritual realm.) The ark of His covenant is then seen in the temple (i.e. - in and among the saints who make up the body of Christ.) In Revelation 11:19 (above) we see the ark of God's covenant, including the articles within it, in and among Christ's body (the temple).

The temple of God is the body of Christ. The life, the power, the nature of every son of God is Christ in you:

Colossians 1:26 "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory."



Christ Himself is the ark; The ark is Christ in you! You are the temple, the Most Holy Place represents your heart. You are, in union with Him, both the temple and the ark; HE is the indwelling life and reality. The temple opened and the ark seen is the manifestation of Christ out from His many-membered body. The heavenly manna, His own incorruptible life, is within you! The tables of the law, His own divine nature, is within you! Aaron's rod that budded, His own divine appointment and priesthood, is within you! (See Revelation 20:6)



The temple of God, the body of Christ, is open and revealed. When the temple [the body of Christ] is opened, the ark of the covenant can be seen! The ark is Christ in you! This temple isn't some inanimate "heavenly building" with a foundation and walls made with bricks and stone found in a "heavenly" rock quarry - the temple is made of "living stones" - i.e. - PEOPLE!

1 Peter 2:5 "...you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house."




Do you not get this JLB?

Thanks for your "help", I think I will stick to the scriptures.

When I quote some of those you mentioned, then by all means.

If you notice, I quote Matthew, Mark, Luke and John! Jesus and Paul!

You have some very peculiar "beliefs'.


JLB
 
Agreed. It does not reside in ANYONE until Christ destroys that "man of sin" ruling within each one of us with the "brightness of His Coming."

Matthew 13:11 "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."


Neither Christ nor His Father are way off on planet heaven. When Christ left this earth, He did so "in the clouds," and those 'clouds' symbolize Christ's 'witnesses' whose witnesses we are:

Acts 1:9 "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."

So are you saying there's more than one man of sin?Also as all will sin in the flesh,does this man of sin come and go?I don't feel Christ is on planet heaven either,He's in another dimension.....

Jesus left from the Mount of Olives, and He ascended up into the clouds, and He is going to come back in the same manner.

For additional proof go to Zechariah 9: 9, 10; and in the nineth verse we are told of the first advent, and the tenth verse tells us of the second advent. Then in Zechariah 14 we are given the details of Christ second advent or coming.

Zechariah 14 not only tell us that He would return at the Mount of Olives, but when His feet touch that Mount, it will open a way across Kedren, to the East gate and into the Temple, and while standing there, He would be drawing His elect to Him.

Carefully read this passage:

Acts 1:10 "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."


Have you ever asked yourself why these "two witnesses" dressed in white apparel asked the Men of Galilee why they were "gazing UP into heaven?" Obviously, the Men of Galilee, who were looking up, were looking in the wrong place. And if "up" is NOT how Jesus ascended according to these "two witnesses," then what exactly did they mean by this statement? Exactly 'what' was the "like manner" these two spoke of - since "gazing up into heaven" was obviously NOT the manner?



Acts 1:9 "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."

What is "a cloud?"

Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Spiritual eyes see clearly who are this CLOUD of witnesses."



Luke 24:48 "And ye are witnesses of these things."


Acts 5:32 "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."


God gives of His Spirit through Him to whom He has "given all things," through Christ. Christ did not have far to go when He was "received of a cloud." You and I are that 'cloud of witnesses' who receive Him. He tells us this is so:

Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world [Greek = aion, age]. Amen."

Cloud,I can and do agree with... Christ sent us His Holy Spirit,until His return...

Now let's do Thessalonians

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God.

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first.

In Isaiah 14:12; "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lu'-ci-fer [day star], son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Lucifer then is another name for Satan; he is also called the Dragon, the serpent, and many other names accounting for the roles he plays, and in our generation he will also be called the "Antichrist".

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

The "Son of perdition" is Satan and Isaiah just told us this very same thing. Remember, the temple of God is on mount Zion, and "on the side of the North". This person sitting there is sitting in God's seat, pretending to be God: "Showing himself that he is God."

"Satan claiming to be God" is the abomination, and "he" [Satan] is the desolator, for the entire world will believe him; except for God's elect, and all those who have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads]. The sealed of God have their gospel armor on, and they are ready to face Satan and his system in the spiritual warfare.

II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.
II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

"The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.

Then Christ will destroy Satan.

II Thessalonians 2:9 "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Sa'-tan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

"Even him" also includes Satan's religious beast system. Satan's religious system will be present with Satan. The religious beast is discussed in Revelation 13, and this the religious role that gives support and authority to Satan. If you believe in the Rapture theory, you will take part in that role. Many Christians will assume Satan to be Christ when they visible witness the supernatural powers he possess, and the deceptions that will take place, all except God's elect.

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness [deceit] of unrighteousness in [for] them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should a lie;"

If you want to believe a lie, God will allow it; in fact he will help you into the system of deceptions Satan will bring on the earth. Do you really think God will come here and personally show you, and talk to you when you refuse to believe His Word, when He gave it in such detail through the prophets and His Son. If you desire to believe that your going to fly out of here, and refuse His word, He will so block your mind that you will not be capable of understanding truth. God will send the "strong delusion" over your mind. The strong delusion is an act of love given by God for your protection.

This is how I see it being played out........
 
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