Heaven and That Other Place

Discussion in 'Theology' started by Andyintheuk, Dec 26, 2017.

  1. Andyintheuk

    Andyintheuk Member

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    Matthew 17 v 1 - 3
    At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

    When was the last time that you heard this or any other passage preached about that refers to the dreadful choice that every man and woman must make at some point in their life? That choice between accepting or rejecting Jesus's salvation.

    We hear plenty of sermons about God's love, kindness and His abundant grace. We hear about God's rescue, but rescue from what? It's not trendy to speak about Hell from the pulpit. Don't speak about the consequences of sin and the rejection of God, just God's love.

    But if we don't warn of the consequences, we're diluting the gospel. To tell someone God loves them, you'll likely get a 'aww nice' response. Tell someone that Jesus died for them 2000 years ago, you'll get a similar response.

    Imagine if you announced you'd been dramatically rescued but refused to say what peril you'd been rescued from? That wouldn't even get a paragraph in the local rag, let alone national or international news.

    We have to warn the unbeliever that he or she is on a conveyor belt to Hell and then tell them about God's rescue plan. Jesus didn't shy away from it nor the epistle writers.

    OK you might get called a Bible thumping weirdo by sceptics but we're told not to seek populism by Jesus who warned that He wasn't popular so we shouldn't expect to be either.

    Let's not be salt that's lost its flavour!
     
  2. Apousía

    Apousía Member

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    I like how the verse uses the word στρεφω strepho

    Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    στρεφω strepho {stref'-o}
    strengthened from the base of 5157; TDNT - 7:714,1093; v AV - turn 11, turn (one's) self 2, turn (one) 1, turn again 1, turn back again 1, turn (one) about 1, be converted 1, vr turn 1; 19 1) to turn, turn around 2) to turn one's self (i.e. to turn the back to one 2a) of one who no longer cares for another) 2b) metaph. to turn one's self from one's course of conduct, i.e. to change one's mind

    τροπη trope {trop-ay'} from an apparently primary trepo {to turn};; n f AV - turning 1; 1 1) a turning 1a) of the heavenly bodies


    In this case " converted " really means that one turn away from former beliefs and behaviors

    It's like the opposite of what an apostate does , turns from the truth
     
  3. Andyintheuk

    Andyintheuk Member

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    Not sure where you obtain your definition of the word conversion? To me conversion is what happened on the road to Damascus, ‘turn away from former beliefs and behaviour’ doesn’t seem to cut it. Jesus spoke more in John chapter 3,
    “Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.””
    ‭‭John‬ ‭3:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    What’s needed is a total rebirth rather than a turn away.
     
  4. for_his_glory

    for_his_glory Member

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    Religion has become a socially acceptable word of God that tip toes through society carrying a closed Bible just for looks. Being politically correct is now the norm because God forbid that we would step on any ones toes and have them be angry with us.

    It is funny, not ha ha funny, but odd that a little child knows more about God then a full grown adult as we see who the child is that has lead us as being our Shepard.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

    That child is Jesus and still leads us today and forever in simplicity of Gods word in all love and boldness of truth.
     
  5. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    Notice Jesus did not say "heaven" but the "kingdom of heaven" (AKA: "Kingdom of God" but Jews back then didn't like to use the word "God" so as to avoid any inadvertent blasphemy.)

    So what is the "Kingdom of Heaven"?
    Rev 21:9-27
    Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

    Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

    The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

    But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.


    And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.

    But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
    And where will it be?
    On earth after all things have been renewed.

    And there you have it, pilgrims. :) :dancing



    iakov the fool
     
  6. Kidron

    Kidron Member

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    =
    That's an interesting take on the word "converted" that you are supplying.

    Something to consider, is that this word is pro-active.....so, its not just turning from...its turning TO something.
    For example, turning from the darkness, to the LIGHT.
    Converting, conversion, (born again) in the "Christian" sense, is not just turning from your old ways, towards new ones... as THAT is simply "religion", and hell is always looking for a few more religious people.
    Millions of people "repent" every Jan 1st, via a resolution....which is really a turning from something, towards .....
    So, that is a type of repentance.

    Christianity, on the other hand, is actually the process whereby a person becomes joined to God , via conversion, and are converted, based on God accepting our faith to then regenerate use, (supplying & applying the Atonement) as His own specific type of conversion.
    So, in this, we see that there is more to conversion this just a behavior change.
    And once again, just like like all things that are a part of Salvation - Redemption, its all God's solution and application.
    He is the one who created a means of conversion, for all of mankind, using Himself as the Son and a Cross and a Resurrection.

    Finally, when we consider why and how we are saved and kept saved, then the word "credit" has to be applied 100% to God, who is the redeemer using Christ's blood and sinless sacrifice - death and resurrection, as the entire means to achieve for us, "conversion", whereby we have become converted.
    To repent, is not to be converted........as all this does is put you in POSITION to be accepted by God, which then BECOMES your conversion once God applies the atonement.
    So then....how much credit do we get for our conversion - converted?

    A.) ZERO.

    THis is why John 14:6 & Titus 3:5 are in the NT.
    Its showing you exactly who gets the credit for our conversion.
    Repentance and Faith, do not save you..........but instead they put you in the correct (contrite) position which God immediately accepts to then SAVE YOU.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  7. gr8grace3

    gr8grace3 Member

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    Great truth.:biggrin2:yes

    :thumbsup:amen:agreed:thumbsup
     
  8. Andyintheuk

    Andyintheuk Member

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    The repentance Jesus talks about, being a combination of a love of God and a desire to obey Him is the difference between John 3 v 3 and Acts 18 v 24-28.
     
  9. Butch5

    Butch5 Member

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    I agree with your statement that we should preach the whole Gospel. However, we shouldn't scare people with false teachings either. To tell people they will burn for eternity if they don't accept Jesus is wrong. The Bible doesn't teach that. Also, hell in the Bible is the grave, not a place of eternal torment. That is the English idea of hell.
     
  10. th1b.taylor

    th1b.taylor Member

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    When fear is the only tool left and there is no movement, it is proper.

    Jude 1:23
    save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.



    Amos 4:11
    "I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD.


    Zechariah 3:2
    The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"


    Psalm 66:12
    You made men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water, Yet You brought us out into a place of abundance.

    Daniel 3:25
    He said, "Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!"

    Daniel 3:27
    The satraps, the prefects, the governors and the king's high officials gathered around and saw in regard to these men that the fire had no effect on the bodies of these men nor was the hair of their head singed, nor were their trousers damaged, nor had the smell of fire even come upon them.

    Hebrews 11:34
    quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

    Isaiah 43:2
    "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
    Scripture located at Knowing Jesus

    It sure looks like Jesus is not above using fear to shake some loose to get them saved and worshiping Him.
     
  11. Butch5

    Butch5 Member

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    I'm not sure how this addresses what I said. There's nothing here about tormenting people eternally in fire.
     
  12. Andyintheuk

    Andyintheuk Member

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    Hell is frequently described as torment and fire
    Matt 13 v 36-42
    Revelation 20 v 10
    Hell is a place to be avoided at all costs. We really need more urgency in our personal witness and prayers for our unsaved loved ones and colleagues and gospel preachers should warn clearly the stupidity of ignoring the Bible's warnings.
     
  13. chessman

    chessman Member

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    And destruction (of both body and soul).
    And death (a second death, one more fearful than the first).

    And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

    But as for the cowards and unbelievers and detestable persons and murderers and sexually immoral people and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.
    Revelation 21:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 21:8&version=LEB

    The description of Hell as the Second Death and the destruction of both the wicked’s body and soul is a testimony of the coming prophecy to be administered to the wicked, not to be taken away.

    I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues written in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share of the tree of life and from the holy city that are written in this book.
    Revelation 22:18-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 22:18-19&version=LEB
     
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Member

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    Andy, Hell is an English word. I really think Christians should get away from using the word Hell as there is too much confusion and theological baggage tied to it. The Bible uses three different names for places that the translators translated as Hell. There is Hades, which is the grave. There is Gehenna, which is a valley outside of Jerusalem. And, there is Tartarus, which is reserved for angels. The English concept of Hell as a place of eternal conscious torment isn't taught in the Bible. The wages of sin is death. God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Gehenna is where Jesus said that the wicked would be cast into the fire. John calls it the Lake of Fire in Revelation. When Jesus said that the wicked would burn in Gehenna, He was referencing a prophecy from Isaiah 66. In Isaiah 66 God said that the people who came to worship Him would leave and see the "corpses" of those who trespassed against Him. It is corpses, not conscious souls that will burn in Gehenna.

    22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.1
    24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:22-24 KJV)

    The prophet Jeremiah prophesied that this place Gehenna would one day made holy again to the Lord. So even Gehenna won't burn forever.

    Since the Scriptures don't teach the idea that conscious souls will burn for eternity we shouldn't preach it to people to "scare" them into Christianity. The wages of sin is death, the wicked will die a second time after their judgement. They will be cast into the Gehenna or the Lake of Fire.

     
  15. Andyintheuk

    Andyintheuk Member

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    Hi Butch, I always treat with suspicion when people tell me that a verse or a passage is inaccurate or badly translated. Maybe I'm typically British expecting everyone to speak English having no time for other languages or I like to think that the Bible is the divine word of God both what's written and the translation.

    Have a read of Luke 16, 19:31. Yes it's a parable but the message is that we should learn from the mistakes of the rich man. We need to give a balanced argument as to why a sinner needs to repent, not a sugar coated one.
     
  16. Butch5

    Butch5 Member

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    Hi Andy,

    Skepticism is good. However, I'm not asking you to take my word for it. You can easily check for yourself to see if what I said is correct. All you need to do is search the word hell in the English translations and look at the corresponding Greek or Hebrew words. I agree that the original writings were without error. However, translations are not. That can be easily seen by comparing different texts.

    Regarding Luke 16, have you considered that Jesus is talking to the Pharisees and not the disciples? Remember, according to Scriptures Jesus spoke to the Pharisees so that hearing they would hear and not understand. You've admitted that the story is a parable. So, if the intent was to tell them something and yet they wouldn't understand it, it seems then that the meaning is below the surface. A simple understanding of this passage, without context, seems to indicate some form of afterlife apart from the body. But, if that was the meaning the Pharisees would easily understand that.

    However, this passage goes to the point I was making. The word used in Luke 16 is Hades. The Rich Man was in Hades, not Gehenna. There is only one passage of Scripture that talks of burning in Hades and it's not people. That passage is a warning to Israel. God said His anger would burn to the lowest Hades. All other mentions of people suffering burning are in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire.

    19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1
    20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
    21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
    22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1
    23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. (Deut. 32:19-23 KJV)

    Jesus spoke the parable to the leaders of Israel. This prophecy is against Israel. That we know it is talking of Jesus' day can be seen in Paul's quote of this passage.

    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?1
    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
    19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
    20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
    21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. (Rom. 10:14-21 KJV)

    Paul applies this prophecy to Israel in his day. It's the same passage that speaks of God's anger burning to the lowest Hades, which is what Jesus quoted. This would indicate that the parable is to and about Israel. A deeper looking into the passage confirms this. There are also details in the parable that wouldn't fit the typical, afterlife understanding of the passage. For instance if this is some form of soul or spirit that has departed the body, how does it have body parts. When the Rich Man asks to send Lazarus to warn his brothers why does Abraham say they have Moses and the Prophets instead of they can believe on Jesus? Jesus is speaking to these people and in His parable He says they have Moses and the Prophets, yet He was there preaching the Gospel and initiating the New Covenant?

    I would submit that the passage is really about the coming destruction of the priesthood and leadership of Israel. The priesthood was about end with the destruction of the Temple. The old way, the Old Covenant, was about to end. There is a lot more that can be said on this parable, but a deeper look into the passage will show that it's not about the afterlife. Also the understanding that this is about the afterlife contradicts quite a few other passages of Scripture.
     
  17. WIP

    WIP Staff Member Administrator

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    However, the various translations were not the work of one individual each but a group of scholars and historians that had to come to a consensus about what the correct translations were. I would trust that over my own personal translation any day.
     
  18. Butch5

    Butch5 Member

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    The number of people involved in the translation doesn't make it correct. However, I'm not translating anything. I'm simply looking at the fact that translators have translated three different locations all by the Same English word. How can that not be confusing? If Gehenna, a valley outside of Jerusalem is translated hell and Hades, the grave is translated hell, and Tartarus a place reserved for disobedient angles is called hell, how does anyone know which is being spoken of when the word hell is used. They don't. That's one of the reasons we have so many bazaar doctrines regarding this word hell. The English concept of Hell is a place of eternal conscious torment. Hades in the Bible has nothing to do with that. Yet it is translated hell. So when people see it, instead of thinking the grave, they think of this place of eternal conscious torment. Can you see how easily one can make the wrong conclusions about the Scriptures?
     

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