Hell, what is it?

[Silmarien]

I really enjoy N. T. Wright, although I haven't read anything of his for a while.

He's one of my favorites! Though I'm currently trying to finish up that Chesterton book you've got quoted there in your signature--I started it about half a year ago but kept on getting distracted!

Alright, and this being the Theology Forum, where is your scripture address that you base this opinion on? Without scriptural basis uor comment is in the wrong forum. Scripture, please.

I would think it clear enough that I was referring to Genesis 1 that I needn't explicitly say so. (Though I'm not sure why you think citing Scripture is required for every post--I don't see that in the rules.) It's not uncommon to view salvation as restoring the image of God in mankind, and when that is your focus, heaven and hell as concepts start taking a somewhat different shape.

Though looking at Scripture itself, I really find things like the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 very interesting. Specifically because of the complete lack of repentance on the rich man's part--his attitude has not changed in the slightest, even now he still expects Lazarus to serve him. It being a parable, I suppose you can take away any number of things from it, but what I see most is someone insisting on his own way up until the very end, and then remaining stuck in that mindset even after it has destroyed him.

 

[th1b.taylor]

There is not a point I was attempting to establish as truth though, was there? And I learned not to post posts discussing a subject without scripture to support it, much the same as these last two in this string but I still seek scriptural verification of the assertion... unless you're going to strong arm me.

 

[WIP]

So does this mean that God is not Omnipresent?

Interesting question. I should rephrase my statement. I believe hell is anywhere apart from God. But to your question, is God in hell?

 

[JohnDB]

Interesting question. I should rephrase my statement. I believe hell is anywhere apart from God. But to your question, is God in hell?

My own ideas about Hell is that it is more positional than locational. It is separation from God. Because I can rejoice at the least spark (God is omnipotent) I cannot go to hell where the fire is not quenched and maggots do not die and the wailing and gnashing of teeth is constant.

 

[Jim Parker]

So does this mean that God is not Omnipresent?

Good point.
God is indeed omnipresent.
Consider the following thoughts from "The River of Fire" by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS

Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father's arms, but if he does not love him, his father's loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head.

"I say," writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, "that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it"

-----

In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!

Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the everlasting inner fire of hatred," ** saith the Lord, because I was thirsty for your love and you did not give it to Me, I was hungry for your blessedness and you did not offer it to Me, I was imprisoned in My human nature and you did not come to visit Me in My church; you are free to go where your wicked desire wishes, away from Me, in the torturing hatred of your hearts which is foreign to My loving heart which knows no hatred for anyone. Depart freely from love to the everlasting torture of hate, unknown and foreign to Me and to those who are with Me, but prepared by freedom for the devil, from the days I created My free, rational creatures. But wherever you go in the darkness of your hating hearts, My love will follow you like a river of fire, because no matter what your heart has chosen, you are and you will eternally continue to be, My children.

** "'The end of the world' signifies not the annihilation of the world, but its transformation. Everything will be transformed suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye.... And the Lord will appear in glory on the clouds. Trumpets will sound, and loud, with power! They will sound in the soul and conscience! All will become clear to the human conscience. The Prophet Daniel, speaking of the Last Judgment, relates how the Ancient of Days, the Judge, sits on His throne, and before Him is a fiery stream (Dan. 7:9-10). Fire is a purifying element; it burns sins. Woe to a man if sin has become a part of his nature: then the fire will burn the man himself. This fire will be kindled within a man; seeing the Cross, some will rejoice, but others will fall into confusion, terror, and despair. Thus will men be divided instantly. The very state of a man's soul casts him to one side or the other, to right or to left.
"The more consciously and persistently a man strives toward God in his life, the greater will be his joy when he hears: 'Come unto Me, ye blessed.' And conversely: the same words will call the fire of horror and torture on those who did not desire Him, who fled and fought or blasphemed Him during their lifetime!

 

[Silmarien]

Edited

I see nothing in Genesis 1 that would lead one to your conclusion and the story of Lazarus is greatly debated as to it's being fact or parable. But considering it as fact or parable, I cannot, for the life of me see where you get such a strange idea from and judging from this reply, what, you're keeping it a secret?

You see nothing in Genesis 1 that would lead one to think that salvation is a matter of restoring the image of God in mankind? I was referring to Genesis 1:27, and I'm actually not aware of any branch within Christianity that doesn't view salvation in such a light, so I'm not really sure what the confusion is. Taking a similar approach to damnation isn't terribly uncommon--I posted that short video by N.T. Wright, and a lot of other people who were influenced by C.S. Lewis take this approach too. I think it goes back to Saints Gregory of Nyssa and Isaac the Syrian, but I haven't gotten around to studying them yet and don't feel qualified to expound upon what they said. Refraining from tossing Patristics around is certainly not me trying to keep secrets, though.

 

[JohnDB]

Good point.
God is indeed omnipresent.
Consider the following thoughts from "The River of Fire" by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS

Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father's arms, but if he does not love him, his father's loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head.

"I say," writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, "that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it"

-----

In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!

Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the everlasting inner fire of hatred," ** saith the Lord, because I was thirsty for your love and you did not give it to Me, I was hungry for your blessedness and you did not offer it to Me, I was imprisoned in My human nature and you did not come to visit Me in My church; you are free to go where your wicked desire wishes, away from Me, in the torturing hatred of your hearts which is foreign to My loving heart which knows no hatred for anyone. Depart freely from love to the everlasting torture of hate, unknown and foreign to Me and to those who are with Me, but prepared by freedom for the devil, from the days I created My free, rational creatures. But wherever you go in the darkness of your hating hearts, My love will follow you like a river of fire, because no matter what your heart has chosen, you are and you will eternally continue to be, My children.

** "'The end of the world' signifies not the annihilation of the world, but its transformation. Everything will be transformed suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye.... And the Lord will appear in glory on the clouds. Trumpets will sound, and loud, with power! They will sound in the soul and conscience! All will become clear to the human conscience. The Prophet Daniel, speaking of the Last Judgment, relates how the Ancient of Days, the Judge, sits on His throne, and before Him is a fiery stream (Dan. 7:9-10). Fire is a purifying element; it burns sins. Woe to a man if sin has become a part of his nature: then the fire will burn the man himself. This fire will be kindled within a man; seeing the Cross, some will rejoice, but others will fall into confusion, terror, and despair. Thus will men be divided instantly. The very state of a man's soul casts him to one side or the other, to right or to left.
"The more consciously and persistently a man strives toward God in his life, the greater will be his joy when he hears: 'Come unto Me, ye blessed.' And conversely: the same words will call the fire of horror and torture on those who did not desire Him, who fled and fought or blasphemed Him during their lifetime!

I like many of the things expressed in the above quotes.
But
Some people actually recognize "good". And the realization that they actively worked against all that which is truly good (God) their whole lives would produce a burning within their heart that would be astronomical.

Most people believe that they are a "good person". At least half of the prison population thinks so.

 

[Jim Parker]

Most people believe that they are a "good person". At least half of the prison population thinks so.

HAH! I bet that's true!

 

[OzSpen]

KJB.

Out of the 23 times the word 'hell' is used Jesus said it 16 times .

Was Jesus talking about Hades/Sheol, Gehenna or Tartarus? They don't all mean the same place or thing. To translate all of these as 'hell' can be misleading.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Edited



You see nothing in Genesis 1 that would lead one to think that salvation is a matter of restoring the image of God in mankind? I was referring to Genesis 1:27, and I'm actually not aware of any branch within Christianity that doesn't view salvation in such a light, so I'm not really sure what the confusion is. Taking a similar approach to damnation isn't terribly uncommon--I posted that short video by N.T. Wright, and a lot of other people who were influenced by C.S. Lewis take this approach too. I think it goes back to Saints Gregory of Nyssa and Isaac the Syrian, but I haven't gotten around to studying them yet and don't feel qualified to expound upon what they said. Refraining from tossing Patristics around is certainly not me trying to keep secrets, though.

The Image of God has not been lost in any man and that is not what Jesus came to restore, anyway. What He came to restore is the Fellowship found in Genesis 3, where He walked in the cool of the evening with Adam, fellowshipping with Adam the same fellowship that Adam passed off when he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Man would have have no spirit except God created us in His image. That spirit is dead in the Lost Man, holding him away from God

 

[reba]

IDK i did not look them what i posted is just a simple statement ..
In the King James Bible in the new Testament the word hell is said printed etc 23 times ,,, Jesus said it 16 of the 23

 

[OzSpen]

I believe hell is anywhere where God is not.

We do know that hell is a place where people experience the wrath of God (Matt 10:28; 25:46; Rev 14:10–11; 20:10–15).

This article gives a helpful overview of the issues: If God is omnipresent, does that mean God is in hell?

 

[OzSpen]

IDK i did not look them what i posted is just a simple statement ..
In the King James Bible in the new Testament the word hell is said printed etc 23 times ,,, Jesus said it 16 of the 23

That's why the KJV and some other versions are misleading because there are 3 different NT words used and they refer to different 'regions'.

 

[Jim Parker]

We do know that hell is a place where people experience the wrath of God (Matt 10:28; 25:46; Rev 14:10–11; 20:10–15).

This article gives a helpful overview of the issues: If God is omnipresent, does that mean God is in hell?

Psa 139:8 (RSV) If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there!

 

[OzSpen]

Is the same punishment equal to everyone?

Not according to Scripture. See my article, Are there degrees of punishment in hell?

Here are a few biblical examples taken from my article:

1. Since God is “the righteous Judge” (2 Tim. 4:8), we would expect that sinners would be punished according to the extent of their sin. This is what the Bible affirms.

2. Matthew 10:14-15 states, “And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town” (ESV).

So it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than for those who do not welcome and listen to the apostles. This is an amazing statement: it is going to be fairer for those who committed sexual immorality in Sodom & Gomorrah than for those who rejected the gospel. What is this saying about punishment in hell?

3. A similar affirmation of degrees of punishment can be found in Matthew 11:21-24,

“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you” (NIV).​

4. Luke 12:47-48 speaks of many blows and few blows: “And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more” (ESV).

The lesson is that where one has greater privileges, there will be greater responsibilities.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Psa 139:8 (RSV) If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there!

This verse confirms the omnipresence of God. Thank you for drawing it to our attention.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Edited



You see nothing in Genesis 1 that would lead one to think that salvation is a matter of restoring the image of God in mankind? I was referring to Genesis 1:27, and I'm actually not aware of any branch within Christianity that doesn't view salvation in such a light, so I'm not really sure what the confusion is. Taking a similar approach to damnation isn't terribly uncommon--I posted that short video by N.T. Wright, and a lot of other people who were influenced by C.S. Lewis take this approach too. I think it goes back to Saints Gregory of Nyssa and Isaac the Syrian, but I haven't gotten around to studying them yet and don't feel qualified to expound upon what they said. Refraining from tossing Patristics around is certainly not me trying to keep secrets, though.

Actually, man would not have a Spiritual Component to our being except God created us in His image. God, being a Spirit Being, does not "look" like us. We have so many different looks that such a thing is not possible anyway. And the Spirit of God is divine and cannot be destroyed anyway.

And that has naught to do with with why Jesus sacrificed Himself on the cross anyway. (Mathew 18:11) Jesus said it himself in 18:11 that He came to restore what was lost. That demands answer for what was lost?

For that we do return to Genesis for the answer but to chapter 3 where we learn Adam fellowshipped with God, one on one, in the cool of the day.

 

[Edward]

Another thread prompted this discussion. So I figured we could begin by knowing what exactly hell is.

What is it?

Was it created, or did it always exist?

Who goes there?

Why do they go there?

I think we often don't like to talk about it for some reason, but sometimes it's nessesary to understand things.

This may have been answered already, but here's what I know...

Hell was never intended for man. Hell was created specifically for satan and his angels. It is the place of punishment for satan & co., for rebelling against God. So it was created just for them. Who goes there is the wicked, those who practice sin and iniquity. Notice I said practice sin. Scripture is clear on this. It's not for those believers who believe in God but are trapped in the flesh and so stumble and fall down occasionally and then repent and turn back to the Lord. People who refuse the truth so they can hold on to one or two worldly things will be there too because God will not be mocked. I think many times people do this subconsciously and not give 100% to the Lord by justifying certain things that they do.

The government teaching people that they do not have to have responsibility in this day and age sure doesn't help that. Like how they're teaching that drug addiction is a disease and not a choice. Bad news, but I digress...why do they go there? Well the obvious answer is punishment, but I think there may be a little more to it than that, (I'm not sure so take this with a grain of salt...) but...purification?
Scripture hints around at this a little but I don't think it goes far enough to say that some will be let out of hell but it does say things like how we're likened to a melting pot and being refined or something like that. I need to do more study on this to understand it better. Just throwing that out there.

From numerous testimonies that I've heard, people seem to describe different levels of punishment in hell, and scripture describes different things. Outer darkness, lake of fire, and stuff like that. Testimony's have described many different types of punishment for different people so I'm thinking that the punishments dealt out may be sort of tailored to the types of sins the person committed and were unrepentant for. It seems to be clear that while all will be in torment, some will be punished more harshly than others.

Or so it seems to me.

 

[Edward]

So does this mean that God is not Omnipresent?

I think hell is described to be in the earth or under the earth...IIRC

 

[jasonc]

Tartarus,is lowest point of hades,sheol has the same concept.

This is why I suggest also knowing the Greek classics,what the bible says to see how and why koine greek words are approximately saying what sheol was.