History important

Discussion in 'Christian / Church Histories' started by K2CHRIST, Jul 6, 2016.

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  1. K2CHRIST

    K2CHRIST Member

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    So much of the Bible is history. Valuable lesson are learned from history. And it is written that there is nothing new under the sun. So isn't one of the lesson we should learn from the Bible is that history is important to learn from.

    I admittedly don't look at history as much as I should. Yet still I am amazed that history is not looked at much in church. Even most of the sermons I hear at church are not presented in a form that shows who the history in the bible is important to us today. And rarely do I hear Christian history since the Bible presented at all. It is as if it is not something pastors and preacher are not expected to know. I find it a bit sad because God is always at work, so we can learn from Him by seeing what He has done.

    For example: one of my favorite bits of history is the history behind the Spirit coming.

    God had always taken the approach that if His people would humble themselves and pray. When in history God's people do that the results are always amazing. Still, by studying history we see that does not usually happen.

    Perhaps one of the best examples of this in the Bible is in Acts where His devote people were gathering together constantly and praying in an upper room. Of course that was the lead up to the Spirit coming like tongues of fire. Then there was a quick expansion of the early church, and many acts done to expand the Kingdom of God.

    Yet that inspiration and the tongue of fire seemed to disappear. The church of course continued to grow from that spark, but the power of God did not always seem to readily on display, and the gifts of the Spirit was not as apparent. Today that is not so. At least there is a substantial record again of tongues and substantial testimonies of healings today.

    And if we look at history we find that at the turn of the century in 1900 we find an upper room, called a prayer tower, again coming into existence. Charles Parham had it going in Topeka, Kansas and on 1-1-1901 the gift of tongues is recorded as coming back.

    Now a hundred plus years from that moment, driven by God people humbling themselves and praying, we have that spark available through out most of Christianity. We have Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, but also we see it to some extent available and accepted to some extent as it was in the early church.

    Now the church I go to, which is a fairly large independent Charismatic church, has built a new and large building which has a prayer tower. This, according to the pastor, was done in accordance with an instruction he believed he received from God. I think that is great. But how will it go, I wonder?

    Will it be embraced as a history changer, or as a novelty to be looked at but forgotten?
     
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  2. Tony Hyman

    Tony Hyman Member

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    Now the church I go to, which is a fairly large independent Charismatic church, has built a new and large building which has a prayer tower. This, according to the pastor, was done in accordance with an instruction he believed he received from God. I think that is great. But how will it go, I wonder?

    Will it be embraced as a history changer, or as a novelty to be looked at but forgotten?[/QUOTE]End Quote


    With all respect I fail to see the New Testament significance of a "Prayer Tower".In the Book of Exodus we find "incense" as symbolic of prayer to be made only by "intercession" through Aaron " Ex 30 :7-10.In India for example they have many of these "Prayer Towers" -where one prays through a "Priest" and is called to offer "sacrifices" .see http://www.prayertoweronline.org/events/dgsptower.asp
    Under the New Testament the Old Temple system has been abolished through the Sacrifice of Christ.Every believer now has direct access to God via the Holy Spirit."In the same way. the Spirit helps us in our weakness.We do not know what we ought to pray for.. but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express .And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will."(Rom 8:26).With all respect and love for my fellow brothers in Christ , I don't mean to come across as "judge" (Rom 14:13) but I fail to see the necessity of a "Tower" specially meant for prayer and other "wonders" .Unless one has a clearer picture of the purpose of such a "Tower" which makes normal prayer by any individual or gathering of believers in the normal fashion ineffective." For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."(Mt 18:20).
     
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  3. reba

    reba Staff Member Administrator

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    The first half of the Bile is church history ( IMO) as is whole big bunch of the second half... Sadly i agree Church history is ignored... We tend to use history to discredit some groups ... WBC will be remembered.. :sad
    Some members here have a good deal of knowledge of Church history..

    When saying Church i am speaking of His Body not any one denomination. Yet understanding the individual histories make up the complete..
     
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  4. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    oi veh!
    Can you find anyone in the Bible who built a "Prayer Tower" or anyone who suggested that it might be a really good idea?

    I hear about pastors of big churches building "prayer towers" but I have yet to hear about one building a "fasting and prayer" tower.

    And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phan'u-el, of the tribe of Asher; she was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity, and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day. (Luke 2:36-37 RSV)

    Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and supplications with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. (Dan 9:3 RSV)

    And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed. (Act 14:23 RSV)

    See? No "prayer towers" but plenty of prayer AND fasting.

    And just what is an "independent" church? In the original church, as it spread from Jerusalem to Northern Europe and as far as India in the 1st century, there was no such thing as an "independent" church. It would have been considered heretical to start a church that was not in full communion with every other church and to call the group an "independent Christian church."
    Independent from what? The rest of the one and only Body of Christ?
    Independent from anyone to whom the pastor has to answer for his theology and behavior?

    The rise of "independent" "Christian" churches is, IMHO, a symptom of the decline of the Church in the west and the rise of private businesses masquerading as Christian churches. Is there a Mercedes Benz in the pastor's parking spot? And his co-pastor wife's parking spot? Do the hungry and homeless and naked get fed, clothes and sheltered at this "independent" church? Are the sick healed at this "Independent charismatic church"?

    Oh, right! That takes prayer AND fasting. (And anyone can do that without the tower nonsense.)

    Just wondering.

    I've had my fill of what passes for "church" in modern, western, churchianity.

    So don't pay any attention to me.

    iakov the fool
     
  5. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    Jim,

    That's a powerful assessment of what is happening in 'independent' Christianity. I have a couple of questions that you might like to assist me with answering:

    1. I see that you are against 'independent' churches, but can you defend 'denominational' churches as having a place in biblical Christianity, based on Scripture?
    2. Concerning feeding the hungry, meeting the needs of others, and praying for the sick, how can the Western church get back to that dimension? I spoke with an evangelical Presbyterian pastor this week about praying for the sick in his church (which is not done with anointing with oil and prayer). He constantly brought up the charismatic churches and schools that have just as many people with colds and flu in them as in the world.
    3. What teaching and practical things would you recommend to help us get back to prayer AND fasting in our churches. In the church I attend there are about 60 adults and children attending. However, prayer meetings on Thurs night at 7pm can only attract 4-5 people. What does that say about the people's view of the power of prayer? However, it could say more about the time at which it is held.
    Blessings,
    Oz
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
  6. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    From the beginning of the Christian church, the congregations were pretty much autonomous but they were all members of the same church. (Not a denomination)
    They were also answerable to one another and a bishop (overseer, presiding presbyter) could be deposed for departing from the apostolic teaching. (Thus the 7 great councils)
    Denominations are an outgrowth of the Protestant/Reformer schisms. They are evidence of man's desire to be the last autho0rioty on what is good and 2what is evil rather than deferring to the teaching of the apostles as interpreted by the early church.
    I don't like denominations either.
    Just do it.
    Benny Hinn (weird as he my be) wrote a very good little book, The Anointing, (for the 4th grade reader level) which essentially states that, if Christians would spend the time in prayer, the healings etc. would follow. Unfortunately, it takes a weird guy like Hinn to point it out. I regularly chide myself for my lack of diligence in that area.
    Which was his way of saying that he doesn't believe God heals or that the fervent prayer of devout Christian availeth anything.
    My experience is that you will have to do it outside of the organized churches. They don't tend to like people doing signs, wonders and miracles if it's not in their bulletin. It takes attention off their scintillating sermons and charismatic personas. :wink They tend to get nervous when someone starts acting like Jesus.
    It could be a reflection of the church having become a form of Christian entertainment. Prayer has a distinct flavor of being actual work. Toddlers in the Lord don't like work. They like fun. Unfortunately, very few churches that I have seen actually take Ephesians 4:11ff seriously with the result of a wide spread lack of maturity among Christians and very, very few believers who approach the maturity of the fullness (pleroma) of Christ.

    One might think that the Church doesn't really take its Christianity too seriously.

    IF you want to see signs wonders and miracles, do them yourself (well not you, actually, let the Holy Spirit do them through you.)
    Read Benny Hinn's little book. The Anointing.

    Then apply what he prescribes.

    :wave jim
     
  7. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    Jim,

    That's a nice way to try to blame the denominations on the Reformation. You forget that the Great Schism of 1054 that separated the Eastern Orthodox Church from the Roman Catholic Church was long before the Reformation.

    There were many groups prior to 1054 that were the equivalent of denominations with their particular theological flairs. This article lists some of them, including the Marcionites, Gnostics, Manicheans, Montanists, etc. See HERE.

    You will never get me recommending the heterodoxy of Benny Hinn. All one needs to do is go to the Bible and to church history to see that God's supernatural gifts have not been withdrawn.

    A few years ago I had an article about St. Augustine's change of mind about divine healing published in the Pentecostal Evangel and Charisma in the USA. I have uploaded it to my homepage as, St. Augustine: The leading Church Father who dared to change his mind about divine healing

    See also, Augustine’s last illness: A divine healing encounter

    Blessings,
    Oz
     
  8. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    That did not create "denominations." There is a difference between a denomination as a schism.
    Denominations are a modern invention.
    The number of divisions in the church for the first 1500 years were essentially three: Eastern, Western, and Oriental (Coptic/Syrian). Arianism may be included since it was the dominant system among the Germanic tribes of Northern Europe until the pagan king Clovis was converted to Catholicism by his wife and forced the German vassals to follow suit.
    The Protestant denominations which have emerged since the "Reformation" number in the tens of thousands. I think that is sufficient evidence to place the cause of the unrestricted fracturing of the body of Christ securely in the hands of Protestant Reformers.
    Nothing like that has happened among the Orthodox and Western Catholicism has divided primarily along political lines (Lutheran Germans and British Anglicans) yet still managing orders of magnitude fewer divisions than the Reformed Protestant incessant dividing.
    I didn't ask you to recommend anything you may properly see as heterodoxy.
    I suggested you read one of his little books which emphasized the importance of prayer in the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit.
    I agree and so would herr Hinn. (In spite of his oddness.)

    jim
     
  9. turnorburn

    turnorburn Member

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    Ah! So its the Protestants fault is it?

    Jim says:
    "The Protestant denominations which have emerged since the "Reformation" number in the tens of thousands. I think that is sufficient evidence to place the cause of the unrestricted fracturing of the body of Christ securely in the hands of Protestant Reformers."

    FOX's BOOK of MARTYRS

    A History of the lives, sufferings and triumphant deaths of the early Christian and the Protestant martyrs

    Chapter I -- History of Christian Martyrs to the First General Persecutions Under Nero
    Chapter II -- The Ten Primitive Persecutions
    Chapter III -- Persecutions of the Christians in Persia
    Chapter IV -- Papal Persecutions
    Chapter V -- An Account of the Inquisition
    Chapter VI -- An Account of the Persecutions in Italy, Under the Papacy
    Chapter VII -- An Account of the Life and Persecutions of John Wickliffe
    Chapter VIII -- An Account of the Persecutions in Bohemia Under the Papacy
    Chapter IX -- An Account of the Life and Persecutions of Martin Luther
    Chapter X -- General Persecutions in Germany
    Chapter XI -- An Account of the Persecutions in the Netherlands
    Chapter XII -- The Life and Story of the True Servant and Martyr of God, William Tyndale
    Chapter XIII -- An Account of the Life of John Calvin
    Chapter XIV -- Prior to the Reign of Queen Mary I
    Chapter XV -- An Account of the Persecutions in Scotland During the Reign of King Henry VIII
    Chapter XVI -- Persecutions in England During the Reign of Queen Mary
    Chapter XVII -- Rise and Progress of the Protestant Religion in Ireland; with an Account of the Barbarous Massacre of 1641
    Chapter XVIII -- The Rise, Progress, Persecutions, and Sufferings of the Quakers
    Chapter XIX -- An Account of the Life and Persecutions of John Bunyan
    Chapter XX -- An Account of the Life of John Wesley
    Chapter XXI -- Persecutions of the French Protestants in the South of France, During the Years 1814 and 1820
    Chapter XXII -- The Beginnings of American Foreign Missions

    http://biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm
     
  10. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Most folks don't embrace or reject prayer & fasting, I think. They seem to be indifferent to them.

    Prayer and fasting are very important to the growing believer. We're told to pray without ceasing and I take that seriously.

    Fasting is not taught enough in our mainstream churches. I believe it to be very much more important than we realize. I can not say why its so important spiritually, but I feel this in my heart as being significant and important. I was listening to a video testimony where a man had a visitation from Jesus and Jesus made the remark that His children should fast more...

    I didn't use to like history. It's all done already. But as I get older I'm drawn to it moreso than before. The Bible is rich in world history, but curiously enough, it says more future history about the end times, than it does about anytime period,even when Jesus walked the earth.

    So I'm learning to pay more attention to Bible history.
     
  11. turnorburn

    turnorburn Member

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    How merciful of our creator to provide us with an operators manual.. perfect in every way..
     
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  12. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Me and my Brother were talking about this last night...

    We're born into a war that we didn't start, behind enemy lines, with nothing except a radio (prayer) and an instruction manual...
     
  13. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    And you obviously have not even an inkling of a suspicion that those two are entirely different subjects.
     
  14. reba

    reba Staff Member Administrator

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    Christian / Church Histories
    A Place for Histories of Christian Churches,
    Beginnings and or Movements,
    Discussion not Debate ..Hard Moderated ..See Sticky,
    Moderated by:
    reba,

    not necessarily directed at the last poster say your peace and let it go..
     
  15. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    Jim,

    Seems as though you have censored some 'denominations', sects or movements from the early church. What about Adoptionism, Apollinaism, Arianism, Docetism, Gnosticism, Luciferians, Macedonians or Pneumatomachians, Manichaeans, Marcionites, Melchisedechians, Monarchians, Monophysitism or Eutychianism, Monothelitism, Montanists, Nestorianism, Patripassianism, Psilanthropism, Psilanthropism, and Sabellianism.

    All of these were sects or denominations in the post apostolic church.

    As for the tens of thousands of denominations, my understanding is that is related to the one denomination with various branches in various countries being designated as many denominations.
    The World Christian Encyclopedia (Barrett et al) even gives this figure regarding denominations:
    How about that! The figure of 33,000 denominations includes 9,000 Protestants, 781 Orthodox, and 242 Roman Catholic denominations (source)

    Are you trying to tell me that there is no essential difference between, say, the Russian Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church in its doctrinal content?

    I've read a couple of Benny Hinn's little books and that's what leads to my labelling his heterodoxy. I don't trust his theology or antics. I'm a former radio DJ who has played my fair share of humour and far-out music. I put Hinn in a category like that.

    Oz
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    edited reba
    2.14:..... If a member agrees or disagrees with a Moderator's decision, they are not to make their opinion public.(see 1.3)
     
  17. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    Please, Oz. Those were heresies, not "denominations."
    There was no such thing as a denomination at that time.
    So that confirms my "10s of thousands" for Protestants. 22,000 for Independents and 9000 for Protestants = 31,000

    As for 781 Orthodox, I seriously doubt that. There are national and ethnic churches but they do not consider themselves divided from the other Orthodox churches.
     
  18. reba

    reba Staff Member Administrator

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    The points have been made move on

    2.14: If a member agrees or disagrees with a Moderator's decision, they are not to make their opinion public.(see 1.3)
     
  19. civilwarbuff

    civilwarbuff Member

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    I know I am late to the party but it sounded interesting.
    I have always chuckled at the "33,000 Protestant Denominations" claim as if there are 33,000 different teachings of the Gospel going on. This usually is a RCC claim to poke at protestants while not understanding that just because all Protestant Churches don't go by the same name does not mean they are all teaching a different Gospel, at least from the Protestant perspective as opposed to the RCC perspective. Many of the so called denominations split off over differences in governance or maybe, as we have seen recently, on accepting/rejecting changing moral stances. Some no longer want to be under a church hierarchy that they feel is becoming too liberal or conservative; some just don't want to be under the hierarchy period. I attend a non-denominational church that, for all intents and purposes, is Baptist. So to pretend that all Protestant denoms are teaching a different Gospel from each other is just not true.
     
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  20. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    The divisions are based on some variation in theology or ecclesiology or just rebelliousness.
    The point is that Jesus desired unity in His kingdom. (John 17:20-21)
    If you think that being in open rebellion against Jesus' expressly spoken desire is something to chuckle about, then perhaps a serious evaluation to your level of commitment to Jesus' words may be in order.
    Ah! Of course! Those damned roaming KATH-licks! You can't take anything they say seriously because they're all hell-bound idol worshipers.
    Please reserve your anti-RC religious bigotry conversation for your coffee klotch.
    Apparently you do not realize that the names of the churches are irrelevant to the point.
    Are you claiming that they all preach the same Gospel?
    Do Calvinists and non-Calvinists preach the same Gospel? No
    Do Southern Baptists and Pentecostals teach the same Gospel? No
    Is the Gospel preached by the Salvation Army the same as the Prosperity Gospel? No
    Do sacramental and non sacramental denominations preach the same gospel? No
    Do dispensational and non dispensational denominations preach the same Gospel? No
    STRAW MAN LOGICAL FALLACY ALERT!!!
    No one is proposing that pretense other than you.
    While it can be demonstrated that Gospels preached by various denominations do, in fact differ, that is a misrepresentation of my position.

    The vast multitude of divisions which are characteristic of the Protestant churches is contrary to the expressly stated desire of the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
    The vast multitude of divisions which are characteristic of the Protestant churches, which you so happily defend, is a dividing of the Kingdom of God so that it is brought to desolation and has as its impetus the sinful rebelliousness of man with the result of Christianity becoming more and more secular and irrelevant.
    As a "civil war buff" I would hope you might be aware of the consequences of the division of a kingdom. The wars of the Reformation lasted over 100 years and cost millions of lives.
    But, as a Christian, you think divisions are no big thing.
    Curious.

    Mat 12:25a But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation..."

    Apparently you support that plan.


    iakov the fool


    DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
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