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History important

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#41
That's kind a what I've been hearing Bill but has anyone "here" actually been there to see if these accusations are legitimate?
 
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#42
That's kind a what I've been hearing Bill but has anyone "here" actually been there to see if these accusations are legitimate?
Not any I know but WBC has been to Houston to demonstrate at the burial of a Veteran some years back and people I trust have been and tell awful stories about them.
 
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#43
Early in my walk my wife asked me to attend a church service in a small community to prove that my thoughts about her church were false. Much to her chagrin my thoughts were confirmed by everything that transpired in that service.. That's why i asked if anyone had been there..
 
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#46
Perhaps the definition of Gospel is in order and then reassess our comments. We can then opine on who responds to not acknowledging the truth of the Scriptures quoted below. As a preamble, it is clear faith significantly implies faithfulness.
Rather than me attempting to speculate on what you gleaned from those scriptures, please state clearly your definition of the Gospel.
 
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#47
The Gospel = Jesus saves. That's about it.
Jesus saves from what?
How does Jesus Save?
What must I do to be saved?
The answers to these and other questions are part of the Gospel.
I don't follow a church, I follow Christ.
Anyone can say that.
Jesus even addressed that view, “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"( Luk 6:46 NIV)
To me, which Church is the "right" church is rather pointless.
Really??
How about the churches that preach the "Gospel" that says Jesus came, died and rose again so you could be rich and live like kings?
How about churches that have in their of their foundational doctrines "What wrong with Catholics and why you should hat them."?
How about churches that teach that God hates homosexuals?
These are glaring differences in the "gospels" that churches preach each claiming to be right. (Which means everyone else must be wrong.)

Meanwhile, in the USA, where the Gospel is preached 24/7 over multiple radio and TV channels, it is legal to murder you infant before he/she takes his/her first breath (over a million murders per year) and homosexual relationships have been given the same status as Christian marriage. (Some "Churches" marry homosexuals. Does that matter?) And we just had an election in which half the country voted for a lying, corrupt to the point of murder, politician named Hilary.

It seems that the church is having very little effect on the country.
 
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#48
How about the churches that preach the "Gospel" that says Jesus came, died and rose again so you could be rich and live like kings?
How about churches that have in their of their foundational doctrines "What wrong with Catholics and why you should hat them."?
How about churches that teach that God hates homosexuals?
I have never attended a church like that......anyone here have?
It seems that the church is having very little effect on the country.
2 Thes 2:3
3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed. (ISV)
Why should that surprise any Christian who is watching; the Church's influence will certainly wane as the end of days approaches.....
 
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#49
I know I am late to the party but it sounded interesting.
I have always chuckled at the "33,000 Protestant Denominations" claim as if there are 33,000 different teachings of the Gospel going on. This usually is a RCC claim to poke at protestants while not understanding that just because all Protestant Churches don't go by the same name does not mean they are all teaching a different Gospel, at least from the Protestant perspective as opposed to the RCC perspective. Many of the so called denominations split off over differences in governance or maybe, as we have seen recently, on accepting/rejecting changing moral stances. Some no longer want to be under a church hierarchy that they feel is becoming too liberal or conservative; some just don't want to be under the hierarchy period. I attend a non-denominational church that, for all intents and purposes, is Baptist. So to pretend that all Protestant denoms are teaching a different Gospel from each other is just not true.
civil,

History is important, especially when we are examining how many denominations there are.

Here is a list of denominations around the world prepared by Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. GCTS has a research dept. dealing with denominations. Count the denominations (in that link) and they do not number anywhere near 33,000. This is another assessment: The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"

Got Questions made this assessment:

The “30,000 Protestant denominations” argument fails on several points. First, there are not 30,000 Protestant denominations. Even under the most liberal definition of what constitutes a denomination, there are nowhere close to 30,000 Protestant denominations. The only way to get even remotely close to the 30,000 figure is to count every minor separation as an entirely different denomination. Further, the vast majority of Protestant Christians belong to just a handful of the most common Protestant denominations; i.e., Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, etc. Yes, it is undeniably sad that there are so many denominations, but the 30,000 Protestant denominations argument is an extreme exaggeration of the reality of the divisions within Protestantism.​

Oz



 
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#50
civil,

History is important, especially when we are examining how many denominations there are.

Here is a list of denominations around the world prepared by Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. GCTS has a research dept. dealing with denominations. Count the denominations (in that link) and they do not number anywhere near 33,000. This is another assessment: The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"

Got Questions made this assessment:

The “30,000 Protestant denominations” argument fails on several points. First, there are not 30,000 Protestant denominations. Even under the most liberal definition of what constitutes a denomination, there are nowhere close to 30,000 Protestant denominations. The only way to get even remotely close to the 30,000 figure is to count every minor separation as an entirely different denomination. Further, the vast majority of Protestant Christians belong to just a handful of the most common Protestant denominations; i.e., Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, etc. Yes, it is undeniably sad that there are so many denominations, but the 30,000 Protestant denominations argument is an extreme exaggeration of the reality of the divisions within Protestantism.​

Oz
Very interesting.....
I guess the short version is 33,000 Protestant denom is just a pile of buffalo chips......
 
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#53
civil,

History is important, especially when we are examining how many denominations there are.

Here is a list of denominations around the world prepared by Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. GCTS has a research dept. dealing with denominations. Count the denominations (in that link) and they do not number anywhere near 33,000. This is another assessment: The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"

Got Questions made this assessment:

The “30,000 Protestant denominations” argument fails on several points. First, there are not 30,000 Protestant denominations. Even under the most liberal definition of what constitutes a denomination, there are nowhere close to 30,000 Protestant denominations. The only way to get even remotely close to the 30,000 figure is to count every minor separation as an entirely different denomination. Further, the vast majority of Protestant Christians belong to just a handful of the most common Protestant denominations; i.e., Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, etc. Yes, it is undeniably sad that there are so many denominations, but the 30,000 Protestant denominations argument is an extreme exaggeration of the reality of the divisions within Protestantism.​

Oz
You post over at CF.com too?
 
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#54
Going out on a limb to open this forum... I will not allow the battles... to close it... Stating ones points, Repeating ones points are not the same thing this is the only warning anyone will have ... I will use the read only function on any more battles.. Any of you are welcome to state your understanding of CHURCH HISTORIES repeating them thinking you will push your point will end up in read only .



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Papa Zoom

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#55
Jesus saves from what?
How does Jesus Save?
What must I do to be saved?
The answers to these and other questions are part of the Gospel.

Anyone can say that.
Jesus even addressed that view, “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"( Luk 6:46 NIV)

Really??
How about the churches that preach the "Gospel" that says Jesus came, died and rose again so you could be rich and live like kings?
How about churches that have in their of their foundational doctrines "What wrong with Catholics and why you should hat them."?
How about churches that teach that God hates homosexuals?
These are glaring differences in the "gospels" that churches preach each claiming to be right. (Which means everyone else must be wrong.)

Meanwhile, in the USA, where the Gospel is preached 24/7 over multiple radio and TV channels, it is legal to murder you infant before he/she takes his/her first breath (over a million murders per year) and homosexual relationships have been given the same status as Christian marriage. (Some "Churches" marry homosexuals. Does that matter?) And we just had an election in which half the country voted for a lying, corrupt to the point of murder, politician named Hilary.

It seems that the church is having very little effect on the country.
I think my post was off topic and so for that reason I'm going to stop here. ;)
 
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#57
Very interesting.....
I guess the short version is 33,000 Protestant denom is just a pile of buffalo chips......
Perhaps the 33,000 consists of main logs and shoots (church plants) across nations while the smaller number refers to the logs.
 
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#58
K2Christ,
What you have said above is in a large part what ia wrong. that and today we have this New Version of the New Testament Christians. Let me, first, give you my understanding of the scriptures: Jesus taught, directly from the Bible, actyually scrolls that after translations we can carry around today. There was no New Testament, there were and there are commentators. Today we have their works available to us in Commentaries but for what? If a man carries a modern copy of the Bible, he or she has the very best commentary ever recorded.

Somewhere around the late sixteemth or the eatly seventeenth centuries, men began to translate those scrolls, Old and New Tesaments. so where is this comentary? It is the New Testament! To a large extent, even the Four Gospels. You see, in the Bible, the first sixty-nine books of the Christian version some of the books, because of their length, have been split in two but that is the Bible used by Jesus when He taught.

Now the trouble with the Church: there should be no preacher or teacher with out a good Bible, one that is extensively cross referenced. Those addresses along the center or along the edges of the verses tell a body what that, particular, verse is related to and beside that address will be the next related verse. If we look at and follow the Chain References we will allways find it is in the end commentinng on the Old testament, so you see, if you have no idea what ity is commenting on the comment is of zero value to anyone and I've never found one of these later day New Testament nor any of these New Covenent Chistians that have been taught to use their Bible in a scritural fashion.

The issue of never opening and reading from the Bible is summed up as they might be great Motovisioal Speakers but (in my best Texan) They ain't none of God's Preachers! we have a few of those here in Texas.

I pray my rant on what is the Bible and what isn't will be of use to your study. MKay God bless.
Just a few comments. The Bible does have history in it and a lot more. So we could try and say that teaching from the Bible is teaching Christian history, but since the end of the Bible was the start of Christianity as a religion, we can't really say that with much conviction. The Bible is really more about Jewish history, which since we are grafted into the Jewish root is important, but shouldn't we know a bit more. And besides, God didn't stop working. So we should know a bit more and even have it coming from the podiums also.

So let me just point out a couple of things about what you wrote. The bible most protestants use today has 66 not 69 books. The Bible the Catholics Christians use has 73 books, which is exactly 7 books difference. That is because the use some of what we call the Apocrypha. And most of the time between the time Christ was crucified until now, the Catholic church was probably the largest group of Christians and certainly the most prominent. That means 73 books were used most of the time by the largest group of Christians. That version of the Bible was know as the Vulgate and was a translation made by Jerome in the late fourth century, It was a translation into Latin, which I think was the language used in Rome at that time.

The Bible translation started long before the 16th and 17th centuries. And that into 73 books of Latin. The printing press happened in the late 15th century, which also was about the time of Martin Luther and the beginning of the Protestant movement. The Gutenberg Bible was printed (by press) in 1456 and Martin Luther lived from 1483 to 1549. So just after the Gutenberg Bible was printed. (So how many books did the Gutenberg Bible have printed in it, 66 or 73?)

So if well educated Christina, even from Texas, have a little trouble with the number of books in there Bible and with a basic history of the Bible, then how well are we covering Christian history really?

And there is so much more to Christian history than just a couple of little facts about how we got our Bible, So if we do a poor job of relating that information, who much are we really missing other very important information. In the Bible we see a people (the Isrealites) and how they once were shown God and fell badly away from Him. They had been told to past on the history and testimony of God, but they fell away. So how are we doing in this same area?

I think we do a very poor job of passing along Christian history! And I think it is important! It's a testimony of the working of God, because God has also been working, as Jesus explained:

But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” (Jn 5:17)
 
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#60
Just a few comments. The Bible does have history in it and a lot more. So we could try and say that teaching from the Bible is teaching Christian history, but since the end of the Bible was the start of Christianity as a religion, we can't really say that with much conviction. The Bible is really more about Jewish history, which since we are grafted into the Jewish root is important, but shouldn't we know a bit more. And besides, God didn't stop working. So we should know a bit more and even have it coming from the podiums also.

So let me just point out a couple of things about what you wrote. The bible most protestants use today has 66 not 69 books. The Bible the Catholics Christians use has 73 books, which is exactly 7 books difference. That is because the use some of what we call the Apocrypha. And most of the time between the time Christ was crucified until now, the Catholic church was probably the largest group of Christians and certainly the most prominent. That means 73 books were used most of the time by the largest group of Christians. That version of the Bible was know as the Vulgate and was a translation made by Jerome in the late fourth century, It was a translation into Latin, which I think was the language used in Rome at that time.

The Bible translation started long before the 16th and 17th centuries. And that into 73 books of Latin. The printing press happened in the late 15th century, which also was about the time of Martin Luther and the beginning of the Protestant movement. The Gutenberg Bible was printed (by press) in 1456 and Martin Luther lived from 1483 to 1549. So just after the Gutenberg Bible was printed. (So how many books did the Gutenberg Bible have printed in it, 66 or 73?)

So if well educated Christina, even from Texas, have a little trouble with the number of books in there Bible and with a basic history of the Bible, then how well are we covering Christian history really?

And there is so much more to Christian history than just a couple of little facts about how we got our Bible, So if we do a poor job of relating that information, who much are we really missing other very important information. In the Bible we see a people (the Isrealites) and how they once were shown God and fell badly away from Him. They had been told to past on the history and testimony of God, but they fell away. So how are we doing in this same area?

I think we do a very poor job of passing along Christian history! And I think it is important! It's a testimony of the working of God, because God has also been working, as Jesus explained:

But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” (Jn 5:17)
Okay, Let me agree 39+27 is 66 but I'll give a bit of history you probably do not have, not for sympathy, rather that you might know. Until, I think it was, '05 I taught the Grumpy Old Men's class. But when I fell off the Ladder welded to my fuel tank, they would not let me drive any more.

They ran me through a series of tests and an MRI. On the MRI in '05 they found 64 lesions and put me on Interfearon because some unknown combination of Agent
Orange, Agent Blue, and Agent /white has caused me to have MS. So it is that my mind and sadly, my body, are not what they should be, I was wrong on the number of books.
 
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