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How do you believe in Jesus, someone who you cannot see?

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#41
My very good friend JLB posted #34. I liked it because it's simple and to the point. This is what he said and if I was to respond again, it would be this....
You will know Him, when His Spirit dwells in you.
That statement of JLB implies that you must be "born again" (John 3:3) John 3:3 "Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
 

WIP

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#42
The Bible tells us that a spiritual world does exist, and we may sometimes encounter realities from that realm—both good and bad (Heb. 13:2; Eph. 6:12). Because of this, we are encouraged to be watchful, prayerful, and prepared. Just as God rules the world we see, He also rules the unseen world.

Here's an article by the professed non-believers in God camp.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation/#

There was an older better one I'm trying to find, iirc, it's from June 2005 Scientific American which stated that mathematically speaking, with regard to the laws of physics not being finite and constant, that, that would indicate that our "reality" is but a shadow of a larger reality, which we can not see.
I'll try to find it.
Let's not take this thread further off topic. Please start a new thread in an appropriate forum if you wish to discuss this further.
 
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#43
Ok. I almost did that, but figured that Jesus being unseen, like the op said was close enough...guess I was wrong lol
 

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#44
Ok. I almost did that, but figured that Jesus being unseen, like the op said was close enough...guess I was wrong lol
We should take it to another thread because you are so very wrong and we don't want non-Christians thinking that the Bible teaches the "seen natural world is not real," that it is "an illusion." That is an incredibly non-Christian idea.
 
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#45
Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

There are realities that are shadows.

Religious folks are just plain strange.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conduction_system_of_the_heart

Look for the physical and spiritual in the picture of the heart. This is how you actually see God inside us in shadow form. But the shadow is a physical reality.

eddif
 
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#46
- how do you believe Jesus, someone you cannot see and there is no evidence of - verse God who you easily can see exists by nature?
By looking at a crucified man in the human heart. You really have to think political cartoon.

Scripture speaks of the hidden man of the heart. Wickepedia does the physical.

eddif
 
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#47
I can do other physical human body symbols, but they zoom right past some folks. Some start to cry that isn't Bible.

This is a touchy area, and I have no idea why a Mississippi redneck wound up in metaphysical discussions. Physical yes. Beyond the physical yes. The physical tied to the spiritual beyond the physical yes.

I can shut up. Get off that roof with all that talk eddif. No one needs all that.

Well some need it, but I will do private if that works best.

eddif
 
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#49
I am who some may call a 'seeker' but have grown discouraged. Grew up in a religious household and now am in my late 20s.

Its easy to see the God exists. Creation makes that evident.

I feel like I know God. I've felt His presence. I don't know doctrinally who He is... the God of Abraham; Mohammed; or the Trinity.

I'm sure he is not 100% pleased with me and the way I live but I can only do so much in this skin. I have many ingrained desires and wants which, without supernatural help, I cannot overcome.

But I just cannot come to believe in Jesus (and I have tried for over 20 years). I cannot see him. And there is no evidence of him from what I can see except from history and what people call the New Testament which I have read over many times and yes it is very beautiful and thoughtfully written albeit by men. The message is very compelling but it stops there - at 'believe in me'.

So I raise this question, to help me understand, to those on this forum who say they know Jesus on a personal level - how do you believe Jesus, someone you cannot see and there is no evidence of - verse God who you easily can see exists by nature?

How do you know that you know Jesus on a personal level and not the God of Abraham or some other?

Remember nature tells us there is a God, however I know of nothing that tells me there is a Jesus and He is alive today.... nothing.

How do you know who you are talking to when you pray is Jesus and not the God of Abraham or Mohammed?
zdan,

You could be missing something here. You say that it is easy to see that God exists as that is evident in creation. Could you be missing this fact? 'And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe' (Heb 1:2 NLT).

God the Son, Jesus, was involved in the creation of the universe.

It seems to me that you are having problems with dealing with the fact that the Jesus who became flesh and died on the cross and was resurrected, can be discovered through an investigation of history. Christianity is an historical religion. If Jesus, the son, did not manifest in history, no sacrifice for sin could be made (see John 1;18; 3:16; Eph 1:11; Col 1:16-17, 22; Heb 4:15; 9:15; 10:12; 1 John 2:2; 4:10). Accept that fact that you need to investigate history to pursue Jesus and the 4 Gospels and Book of Acts have been demonstrated to be historically reliable (see F F Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?)

You say, 'But I just cannot come to believe in Jesus (and I have tried for over 20 years). I cannot see him. And there is no evidence of him from what I can see except from history and what people call the New Testament'. You must engage in historical investigation to discover the Jesus who came in the flesh.

You say that you cannot believe in Jesus because you 'cannot see him'. What else do you accept and believe in that you have not seen? Have you ever seen the secret formulae that Google uses to search the www to find what we want? Can you believe in these formulae to the point of using Google? Have you ever seen the equator, Tropic of Cancer or Tropic of Capricorn? Do you believe in them? The Tropic of Capricorn is located about 7 hours north (600km) of where I live in Brisbane, Qld., Australia. I've seen the sign to indicate the Tropic of Capricorn but I've never seen any real line that indicates that is what it is. It's invisible.

Think on the other things you cannot see that you believe in. You are erecting a straw man when you make the invisible Jesus an excuse for not believing in him. Christians whose lives have been changed by Jesus know that Jesus lives in them by the Holy Spirit who came into their lives at the point of conversion. I can assure you that I wouldn't be sitting at this PC communicating with you on this topic if the living Christ (by his Spirit) did not live in me and has changed my life.

As for your issue whether he is 'the God of Abraham; Mohammed; or the Trinity', the God of Abraham is the God of the Trinity. The God of Islam is monism. Could Allah have had a son? Answering Islam has provided this evidence:

In the Qur'an we find the following two statements:
Sura 39:4
Had Allah wished to take to Himself a son,
He could have chosen whom He pleased out of those whom He doth create:
but Glory be to Him! (He is above such things.)
He is Allah, the One, the Irresistible. (Yusuf Ali)
If Allah had willed to choose a son,
He could have chosen what He would of that which He hath created.
Be He Glorified! He is Allah, the One, the Absolute. (Pickthall)

Sura 6:101
Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth;
How can He have a son when He has no consort?
He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.
Sura 39:4 and 6:101 agree on the actuality, that Allah does not have a son, but they contradict each other in the issue of ability or possibility.

Sura 39:4 clearly states that God could have taken Himself a son from among his creation, i.e. without the necessity of a consort to father such a son. But Sura 6:101 clearly rejects the same idea as a logical impossibility.​

I ask you to consider these matters more deeply.

Oz
 
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#50
How can you believe in Alexander the Great? There is more evidence for the existence of Christ than there is for him yet you have no doubt that he existed and did what is said that he did! Any person has no rational reason NOT to believe in Jesus.
 
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#51
Hey Zdanman, fear not. I can tell your question is sincere. I can also assure you that God is not upset, mad or disappointed with you. As the scriptures say, he is long-suffering and patient and not wishing anyone one to perish.
I came to the Lord in a traditional christian way in which the love of God became very real to me as I believed the message of Jesus. As I grew and tried to walk this christian walk I became much frustrated by all the teaching I was hearing and speaking myself. I came to realize that although many knew God through Jesus, most of us didn't understand what Jesus taught.
*A key for you: When you read the New Testament, especially the things Jesus says try to see that he is trying to reveal a life that was hidden within him.
Example: When he said that he was the way, the truth and the life, he was not trying to separate himself from you, but on the contrary, he was exposing a life that he was willing to die for in hope that you would see and experience that same life. When we try to separate Jesus from the life he was revealing we do God an injustice for John said he was the light that lighted every man that came into the world. So don't focus on Jesus the man, but focus on the truth for you he was trying to unveil.
The stone of son-ship is laid in your heart as well. The new birth is an awakening of the truth in you which came from the Father.
Hope I didn't confuse things more, but you need not try so much as you need to listen. You have an unction from the Holy One and need that no man teach you.
Be blessed my brother
Tony
 
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#53
I am who some may call a 'seeker' but have grown discouraged. Grew up in a religious household and now am in my late 20s.

Its easy to see the God exists. Creation makes that evident.

I feel like I know God. I've felt His presence. I don't know doctrinally who He is... the God of Abraham; Mohammed; or the Trinity.

I'm sure he is not 100% pleased with me and the way I live but I can only do so much in this skin. I have many ingrained desires and wants which, without supernatural help, I cannot overcome.

But I just cannot come to believe in Jesus (and I have tried for over 20 years). I cannot see him. And there is no evidence of him from what I can see except from history and what people call the New Testament which I have read over many times and yes it is very beautiful and thoughtfully written albeit by men. The message is very compelling but it stops there - at 'believe in me'.

So I raise this question, to help me understand, to those on this forum who say they know Jesus on a personal level - how do you believe Jesus, someone you cannot see and there is no evidence of - verse God who you easily can see exists by nature?

How do you know that you know Jesus on a personal level and not the God of Abraham or some other?

Remember nature tells us there is a God, however I know of nothing that tells me there is a Jesus and He is alive today.... nothing.

How do you know who you are talking to when you pray is Jesus and not the God of Abraham or Mohammed?
hello zdanman, dirtfarmer here

One question: Do you believe in gravity? Why, because you can feel it's affects? Can you see gravity? Just as you can't see gravity but can feel it's affects on your life, do you not believe in it. You understand by faith that there is a power that keeps you grounded and if you jump you will return to earth.

Believers can't see Jesus on a person to person basis, but we can see his affects on our lives. We can understand God's power and existence through nature, but we can't see God or feel God's love through those mediums. God's love is expressed to mankind by his Son who died for your sin debt. This love of God is only expressed in Jesus Christ as we are told in scripture.
 

WIP

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#54
Not sure if everyone is aware but zdanman opened this thread on December 30, 2016 and this has been this person's only appearance on CFnet.
 
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#56
Not sure if everyone is aware but zdanman opened this thread on December 30, 2016 and this has been this person's only appearance on CFnet.
Do you think they died?
If so, i can tell you for certain that they now believe in both God and Jesus, as there are no atheist beyond the grave.
The issue is....God does not accept their faith after they die, as this is not faith...its just A REALITY CHECK.
The only faith that God accepts, is when you exercise it on this side of death.

Remember John Lennon? (The Beatles)
His Lyrics :
"imagine there's no heaven, its easy if you try, no hell below us, above us only sky"?

Well, he found out his lyrics are not true, and it was an eye opening experience that is going to continue, and not in a good way, in his case.
 
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#57
But I just cannot come to believe in Jesus (and I have tried for over 20 years). I cannot see him. And there is no evidence of him from what I can see
Hello! May I suggust to you that the "seeing" part that you mentioned is your snare. You need to be able to see something tangible in order for you to believe it, right? But our eyes are so very easily deceived. And our Creator knows this about us! He knows that we follow our eyes in almost everything we do. That's why, in His infinite Wisdom, God told us that our "faith (what we believe to be true) doesn't come by sight, but by hearing every word that comes out of the mouth of God" (Mat 4:4, Romans 10:17) Reading the New Testament is great, but you didn't mention anything about Moses. And if you haven't heard Moses, you haven't heard 75% of what God has spoken. Without Moses there's not a whole lot to believe IN. It's like you said: the New Testament sounds nice, but all by itself it doesn't really mean anything. And after 20 years you've finally realized that no matter how hard you try, you simply can't will yourself to believe. That's exaclty what Jesus said in Jn 5:46 For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me. Moses introduces, defines and explains everything we need to know (and then some) about Jesus and how He is the integral part of God's perfect plan of the redemption, sanctification and restoration of mankind. Jesus is the Son who was promised to Abraham who would (and did) offer Himself willingly as an acceptable substitute before the Father on our behalf, according to every single protocol outlined by Moses.

You asked: how do I believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah? My answer is simple: because He performed all the signs of Moses and He also spoke the same words Moses spoke.

You asked: how do I know who I pray to? My answer is: Since I have heard and understand the 1st 5 books of the Bible along with the New Testament, how can I not know? He is the Creator, the Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Moses says God has 3 forms, yet He is a unified ONE. Jesus says the same thing, "I and My Father are ONE." BTW: You and I are made of 3 components, too: flesh, soul and spirit. Can you seperate out your soul from your spirit? We can't but God can... and does! The God of the "Old" Testament is the exact same God in the "New."

If you truly WANT to believe that Jesus is the Messiah (Christ) you gotta find somebody to teach you Moses. But if you don't want to believe in Jesus, then don't listen to Moses. It's that simple.
 
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#59
How can I believe in someone I cannot see? The same way as I just posted this. Why? Who is asking?
A very important question. It is not a simple question to answer and the very best I can do is to give you experience in reply. This a question that must be answered in order to lead a successful life, however.

When I found that, to me, God was real, I was totally ruined, crushed and pushed into the dump, done. O was a self professed Atheist. A few hours earlier I had found the best friend I had ever known, the man I was getting drunk with about 3 hours earlier, and he was, in fact, blown to piece head sitting in the crate he used for a book shelf staring, with his eyes wide open.

So, there I was, standing on the dirt Company street cursing the
God I told everyone that I refused to believe in. Quite suddenly and without fanfare of any sort I was asked a question, "Why curse me, you don't even believe?." Seven words, I pray I never forget. Instantly, I became a Deist. I was not a Christian, that took another 23 years, plus a little. I tell it now that the Holy Spirit did not want any part of the places and events that I was going to engage in during that 23 years. I was a very good Country Singer and after making a little money the people in the after hours Blues Clubs enjoyed the Cowboy that wailed Ssm Cook's numbers until 6 or 7 in the morning.

My theology was all messed up and I figured God is the creator but He has no use for a man that had killed people and had enjoyed as many women as I had. I was a worm that did not deserve any consideration, I still am. I am not that man today because God has changed me but I know who I was.

Did I mention I was the only person in the street that morning after the rocket and mortar attack? I was ever busy with disproving God that I was open to hearing Him if, in fact He existed. You and you alone have this question to resolve. I suggest you, with incredible patients challenge my God to prove Himself, He did it for me.
 
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#60
Oddly enough cowboy, I was answering the original question with a question. Got the idea from Ravi Zaccharias.

Really glad you answered it that way that, that's a great story that you told and I thank you for it because I'm a performer too.
 

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