How Homosexuals Misinterpret Scripture

[Rick W]

That's just it Quath. You don't believe therefore you feel scripture can be massaged in any fashion to fit what it is you want to feel comfortable with. There's no harmony to your interpretations because in your mind things are changing constantly to suit the change in your opinions. I'll wager the things you see or don't see in scripture today will not be the same tomorrow. You'll change and so will your opinion on what scripture says.
But, you have no foundation to base your ideals on except yourself and that's why your opinions of scripture must change also.

 

[Quath]

That's just it Quath. You don't believe therefore you feel scripture can be massaged in any fashion to fit what it is you want to feel comfortable with. There's no harmony to your interpretations because in your mind things are changing constantly to suit the change in your opinions. I'll wager the things you see or don't see in scripture today will not be the same tomorrow. You'll change and so will your opinion on what scripture says.
But, you have no foundation to base your ideals on except yourself and that's why your opinions of scripture must change also.

It is not that I believe it can be massaged or changed, it that I observe it being massaged and changed. So I present two types of arguments. One is a literal argument (if you accept XXX then you should accept YYY). I also present cultural arguments (you reject XXX from the Bible, so why not also reject YYY).

However, my own personal moral arguments ignore the Bible and just use stuff like the Golden Rule (which is common to just about every religion and culture).

But this thread is about homosexuals massaging scripture to fit their message. However, it seems that monogamists also do the same about polygamy. It seems that the pot does call the kettle black.

 

[christian_soldier]

Quath,

For someone who doesn't believe in God, you sure dedicate a large portion of your time to Christian forums.

I sense you are an individual battling with ever present conviction whose source you truly know to be of God, and like the climber who has lost footing on the ledge is scratching at whatever can be found in reach.

It isn't the fall that kills, its the landing. You may be the sort that will ONLY find God on the rocks below.

 

[Rick W]

I can't say it much better than this...
Basic Christian doctrine

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The Ultimate Goal of the Marriage Union

The five points in this article ("What Are the Keys to a Happy Marriage") for building a happy marriage deal with the relationship in a mental and emotional sense. But there is more to this physical union than what is commonly experienced. Whether one marries or remains single, God wants us to understand there are spiritual implications to the marriage relationship.

The marriage union has an ultimate purpose that few understand. The apostle Paul gave us a glimpse of this truth when he wrote: "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Ephesians 5:31-32).

In the book of Revelation, Jesus Christ reveals that in the future, at His return to earth, He will marry the Churchâ€â€the believers who have been faithful to Him and His Word. "'Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife (the Church) has made herself ready.' And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints ... 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!'" (Revelation 19:7-9).

Today's physical marital union depicts tomorrow's greater spiritual unionâ€â€the marital union between Jesus and His Church. Some Christians are now preparing for and are actively a part of that future, permanent union. The spiritual growth of a Christian is the very process of proving ourselves ready for the ultimate goal of marriage to Christ, to be one with Him, resurrected to spirit as He is spirit (1 Corinthians 15:49-53; 1 John 3:2-3).

This is one of the underlying reasons that God instructed husband and wife to "become one flesh"â€â€to portray the fact that we are ultimately to become spiritually at one with Christ and God the Father. Jesus prayed to the Father regarding His followers, "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one ..."(John 17:22-23).

For a man and woman, the marriage state is modeled on the Church's relationship to Jesus Christ. Both relationships take sacrifice as both marriage partners work to become one with each other and with Christ.

The Church of God is now betrothed to Christ, which means the Church is promised to Him as a virgin bride (Revelation 19:7). Since human beings cannot make themselves pure, we are made clean by Jesus' sacrifice and saved by His life (Romans 5:8-9; 1 Peter 1:18-19). However, with God's assistance through His Holy Spirit, we are still required to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12-13).

The institution of marriage between a man and a woman is a tool to teach us of the Church's eventual marriage to Jesus Christ. That marriage will be permanently and luxuriantly happy. Now is the time to begin modeling that eternal relationship with your husband or wife today, building a happy, fulfilling and productive marriage.

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[Solo]

Great post, Potluck. Many may argue with the Word of God, but in the end they will call Him Lord, and confess that He is true while they are liars.

 

[dancing queen]

Quath, you seem to have difficulty working from the old testament so why not look at the new:

Ephesians 5:31
"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."

1 Corinthians 6:16
Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."

This seems to make it clear to me that whoever you have sex with you become one with. When you get married you become one with someone. You are no longer as two people but as one flesh. My question simply is how could you do this with more than one person? The two people become one and whole together, this can't be done with more than one person, you can't be one flesh with lots of people.

Slightly more related back to the original post, I have heard loads of people say how the Bible may be against homosexuals, but it was written in a different society and should be changed to suit our culture. This is far from true. In both the time of the OT and with the Greeks/Romans at the time of the NT, gay relationships were common place, they had slaves for this particular pratice even. At the time the Bible was written, God's people were different to many around them, in saying homosexual relationships are wrong. Therefore it is no different from today, and thus doesn't need to be updated and adapted for a not actually so different society.

 

[Quath]

For someone who doesn't believe in God, you sure dedicate a large portion of your time to Christian forums.

I sense you are an individual battling with ever present conviction whose source you truly know to be of God, and like the climber who has lost footing on the ledge is scratching at whatever can be found in reach.

I am not searching for God, just understanding of Christians.

After 9-11, many people started to talk to Muslims to find out more about Islam. They wanted to figure out if all Muslims would join together or if they saw the terrorists as extremists. They may want to know how or if the Muslims would deal with extremists. Yet we would not accuse these people of searching for Allah.

I can't say it much better than this...
Basic Christian doctrine

I think this article cherry picks some verses and ignore verses that goes against its theme. For example "become one flesh" is about sex. The Bible talks about a man and a prostitute becoming one flesh. yet we would not think that a man and a prostitute are equivalent to a married couple. This article does not address the polygamy rules and the reasons when you have to kill your wife. (That is why I see it as cherry picking.)

My objection is not the message (it is more current with secula rbeliefs than the Old Testament). My objection is that people act like this message is Biblically based, when it is cherry picked instead from the Bible.

This seems to make it clear to me that whoever you have sex with you become one with. When you get married you become one with someone. You are no longer as two people but as one flesh. My question simply is how could you do this with more than one person? The two people become one and whole together, this can't be done with more than one person, you can't be one flesh with lots of people.

Why not? If two can become 1, can 3 become 1? (You could even throw in some trinity analogy for fun. )

But I think the way the Bible probably means this is that the husband is one flesh with each wife. I don't see the Bible saying that one flesh with each wife is wrong.

Slightly more related back to the original post, I have heard loads of people say how the Bible may be against homosexuals, but it was written in a different society and should be changed to suit our culture. This is far from true. In both the time of the OT and with the Greeks/Romans at the time of the NT, gay relationships were common place, they had slaves for this particular pratice even. At the time the Bible was written, God's people were different to many around them, in saying homosexual relationships are wrong. Therefore it is no different from today, and thus doesn't need to be updated and adapted for a not actually so different society.

I think there is still a point that the Bible could be responding to a particular time and culture. For the OT, it was a time to breed and multiply. So homosexuality could be seen as bad.

In NT times, homosexuality was commonly associated with pedophilia and pagan ceremonies. So that could be why it was seen as bad.

So maybe the question is whether homosexuals can become one flesh?

 

[Rick W]

Well Quath. The bible means nothing if you're not a believer. It's just a bunch of do's and don't's, disjointed facts, a hodgebodge of myths and contradictions. With that view I could twist, manipulate, massage, fashion and mold anything I wanted. And did some years ago.
Anyway, I could quote scripture 'til the cows come home but that would do no good. Didn't do any good for me and I'm sure it won't do any good for you.

I am not searching for God, just understanding of Christians.

Impossible. Isn't going to happen. You search in vain and even at the end of your lifetime you'll not be any closer than when you started. How can you understand the results of faith when you don't seek the One in which the faith is based? Besides, if you look for your answers in men, christian or not, you're looking at the wrong ones and in the wrong places. Look to Christ and what He did on the cross. I can't help you, nobody can. But Christ is more than capable of doing so. Don't look toward me but toward Him. I have nothing for you, He does.

 

[Quath]

How can you understand the results of faith when you don't seek the One in which the faith is based?

If a Muslim said you had to know Allah before you could understand them or if a Hindu said you had to know Vishnu before you could understand them, what would you do? Would you just believe on faith that these beings are true or would you just try to understand their religion while knowing they believe in the imaginary?

I am not against knowing the truth. If God is true, I would want to know. However, I have seen no evidence that he is any more real than any other deity invented by mankind. I have no belief in God unless God is where the physical evidence in life leads.

But on another level, I do have to deal with Christian in my daily life. I have a friend that can not marry his partner because Christians say it is wrong. So I want to see why they say it is wrong and if there is room for reason. What I end up seeing is people picking and choosing their beliefs out of an old book to match what they really wanted to believe in the first place.

When I try to argue for consistency in belief, I am just told that I do not have the Holy Spirit and the old book will mean nothing to me. (I have been told this many times.) In other words, people are allowed to contradict themselves, but I am not allowed to point it out because I am not a believer.

 

[Rick W]

From what you've been posting I doubt you"argue for consistency in belief". In many posts you argue the opposite... an all changing, ever evolving form of belief dictated by the society and/or culture at the time. I've seen nothing consistant besides the fact you believe in nothing but your own sense of right, wrong, opinion and ideals. These will change over time. The only consistancy is the fact that your precepts change and will be changed. What you believe at 40 will not be the same as you believed at 30 or 20. And the future certainly will not guarantee consistancy.

 

[Quath]

From what you've been posting I doubt you"argue for consistency in belief". In many posts you argue the opposite... an all changing, ever evolving form of belief dictated by the society and/or culture at the time.

Ultimately, what I am trying to argue is that Christians today do water down the rules of the OT. If they would just recognize they do it, it would help social progress. If they say they don't do it, then I argue from a literal interpretation of the Bible.

I've seen nothing consistant besides the fact you believe in nothing but your own sense of right, wrong, opinion and ideals.

I agree, but I think we are all doing that. If all Christians believed the same set of moral rules, then I would be inclinded to believe they are not just justifying the right and wrong they already want to believe in.

These will change over time. The only consistancy is the fact that your precepts change and will be changed. What you believe at 40 will not be the same as you believed at 30 or 20. And the future certainly will not guarantee consistancy.

Yeah, I notice that I change over time. Some things become more important and some less. However, I also notice that my moral stance today at 35 is the same one I develped when I was 12. I just have more information to work with.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Just decided to jump in here to say how much I appreciate the dialog between PotLuck and Quath ...intelligent, level-headed ...good for you both, guys.