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I misled us on the issue of divorce - wrong interpretation

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wondering said:
Thanks for the informative reply. Actually I understand what you're speaking of better than you might think.
I was born in a small (really small) town in Italy. In the 1960's when I returned here for the first time as a young girl, the situation was such that there was no work for women and they were forced to stay in a marriage even if they were abused for the simple reason of economics. You mention livestock. Listen to this saying:
Moglie e buoi
Dai paesi tuoi
It means: Cows and wives should always be from your hometown. Interesting parallel...

I loved The Scarlet Letter. How come the guy didn't have to wear a big "A"?? Plus other themes.

So Jesus said NOT to divorce. He was trying to avoid the way women were mistreated. It can't be explained better than in Mathew 19:1-11
As we all know, Jesus treated women well in His time and, as I had mentioned, they were not given a lot of consideration, as you confirm by mentioning the difficult decision Joseph had to make to accept Mary and wed her. Jesus was always trying to fix the situation and make us behave more rationally and with more heart.

Do you not agree, however, that some things are not a matter of the heart? If we're to be disciples we should do what Jesus commands. If you've been reading my posts you must know by now how heart wrenching this problem is.. but we are to strive to follow His rules.

I know what you mean by heart condition. I know the covenants and the difference between the Old (Mosaic) one that couldn't be kept and the New Covenant. The inner workings are different indeed. But if Jesus says "Love your neighbor" am I not to strive to love my neighbor? Or do I just go with my heart condition and NOT love him? Maybe I don't feel like it for whatever reason - so do I still strive to love him or just let it go?

How do you understand getting a divorce as being a heart condition? Should we make an effort to stay together or do we just throw up our hands and give up? Don't you think it's become too easy? Or are you saying we're not to judge? My friend has a grandson who is devastated by his parents' divorce. Does their egotistical attitude outweigh their responsibility to their son? Maybe they had a good reason (only they know their business), but where does the heart come in? How about the heart to do the right thing.

It would have been nice for men back in Jesus' time to love their wives and treat them with respect as in Ephesians. But, in the case they didn't, wouldn't it have been nice for the wife, if at the very least, the husband would have followed Jesus' teaching and also Paul's teaching. Is this what we should be doing today?

W
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Unfortunately I have had to learn so many lessons the hard way.
Experience is a cruel teacher and a fool will learn by no other instructor.

I, without much in the way of scripture support, believe that it's time to divorce when staying in a marriage is more evil than leaving.

Our actions show and teach others. People follow our lead in life when looking for what to do. Especially when we are seen as a life goal to be reached by others.

Many are lost, dazed and confused because of their lack of understanding and faith. They are harried and harrassed because they have no shepherd. They know of Jesus but really don't know him. They claim him as their Savior but still don't know him. The pastors and Bible teachers don't teach this stuff so they look to living examples... Unfortunately people like me who has had more failure than success. (Kinda like Edison)

So if some reason my wife, my best friend and confidant, was to do an about face with her focus I would be shocked... But I'd hang in there till I can figure out the problem. And it may take some time.

But I have a ministry I'm called to perform. She might leave me alone to do it...but if I continue she probably will abandon me. I certainly can't let a self centered person be involved in it. (Had this happen before). Not that I'd neglect her but a spouse who becomes egocentric can't stand being around those who are altruistic in nature.

So the unbeliever will leave. They just do...especially when you refuse to help them be evil. Because if they can't control you they will hate you. (Nature of Narcissistic behavior). If they are physically abusive you must leave...it's not right to allow yourself to be a heathen's punching bag. A person belongs to God first and foremost. A spouse is secondary to that.

So...I hope this helps.
 
JDB,

(Maybe I am reading too much into your last post. If so, forgive me.)

Tonight I got to sit across from a couple who gave their story of what God has done in their lives. In maintaining confidentiality, I will only say their marriage was absolutely shattered and damaged beyond human repair. I was there a few years back when they were suffering an irredeemable marital train-wreck. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved them, has redeemed them and their marriage. By grace they have been saved.

My point is this: I encourage you, JDB, to believe that your God is able to restore what you cannot. Never, never, never think you, your wife, or anyone else is beyond the power of God to grant repentance. Always make room for God to bring repentance and redemption. With man things are impossible, but He is not a man and for Him all things are possible.

Grace to you and yours.
 
Hospes said:
As I said, God has every reason to divorce me. The point of the New Covenant isn't that sin is not so bad anymore, it is that Jesus' work of the Cross takes whore mongers as myself and reconciles them to a ever-faithful and all-satisfying Husband. Such grace!! This is the same grace to be displayed in our earthly and temporary marriages. If Christians showed as much interest in how to display such grace as they do how to justify divorce, there would be no divorce among them.
Click to expand...
You keep talking like this and you're going to ruin a lot of Christians plans to divorce their spouses. :)
 
Hospes said:
JDB,

(Maybe I am reading too much into your last post. If so, forgive me.)

Tonight I got to sit across from a couple who gave their story of what God has done in their lives. In maintaining confidentiality, I will only say their marriage was absolutely shattered and damaged beyond human repair. I was there a few years back when they were suffering an irredeemable marital train-wreck. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved them, has redeemed them and their marriage. By grace they have been saved.

My point is this: I encourage you, JDB, to believe that your God is able to restore what you cannot. Never, never, never think you, your wife, or anyone else is beyond the power of God to grant repentance. Always make room for God to bring repentance and redemption. With man things are impossible, but He is not a man and for Him all things are possible.

Grace to you and yours.
Click to expand...
Yes. I agree.
That's what I have been trying to get across.
That the "one size fits all" line for a license to end a marriage is wrong and incorrect.

All anyone wants to hear is that I am liberal when it comes to reasons for divorce.... But the truth is that I am really very conservative as well.

Every couple is unique and God is a miracle worker. If people worried more about their relationship with God then the relationship with their spouses usually fixes itself.

They're times when a divorce is needed. But when it involves believers...probably not. No Matter what reason they think they have.
 
wondering said:
OzSpen
Truly, there's nothing left for me to say.
I went through each scripture you posted.
I said it had nothing to do with the concept I was speaking of which is that divorce and remarriage is adulteress since GOD DOES NOT RECOGNIZE DIVORCE. Since you understand about covenants, It should not be necessary for me to explain any further.

If you go back and read my original posts, FORGIVENESS IS IN THERE. I never said this could not be forgiven. God can forgive ANYTHING.

I'm at a loss to understand what you're arguing about!

W
Click to expand...

I'm simply affirming that no matter what the rights and wrongs of what led to the divorce, when God forgives he cleanses the slate of sin clean. The divorce cannot be undone and the slate of the human hearts of those involved are clean of sin.

They should go on and live in the light of God's glorious forgiveness. This means, in practice, fleeing from abusive relationships where people are harmed or at risk of harm.

You may not like that conclusion, but your view keeps people living in sin, even though they have received God's forgiveness - which is an oxymoron.

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
wondering,

You seem to be missing something fundamental here with regard to sins and forgiveness.
  • God remembers our sins no more after he forgives them (Heb 8:12 ESV);
  • Love keeps no record of wrongs (1 Cor 13:5 NIV), and
  • Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8 ESV).
For your kind of argumentation,
  • God does not forget the sin of divorce and remarriage after he forgives them;
  • God keeps a record of the wrongs of divorce and remarriage, and
  • God's love does not cover the multitude of sins from divorce and remarriage.
I suggest you go back to God's drawing board and meditate on these Scriptures and their application to divorce and remarriage.

Also, there is an application to sins that you and I commit over and over and over. Does God remember them after he forgives 1, 2 or 100 times. Does he cover the multitude of repeated sins you and I commit?

Why are you singling out divorce and remarriage when each of us can be perpetrators of multiple sins of another kind over and over? Discussing contract and covenant does not overcome the difficulty.

I think you are being selective with the type of sin you are choosing. Until Jesus returns, each of us will battle single and multiple sins in our lives.

Oz
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Of course you are correct.
Our sins are removed when forgiven. There is no remembrance of them. Divorcees don't get a check mark by their name. They do have to live with the earthly consequences of their actions. (This earth doesn't forgive)

Remarried couples shouldn't get divorced just to remarry their original spouses as that is destroying yet another family and trying to slap God's name on it as if it was a good thing. (Actually it's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit)

Sins are sins and forgivable. Only the sin of judgmentalism and unforgiveness is THE toughest for God to forgive.

I won't debate you... Especially when I agree.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
What issues?
Click to expand...

Go back to #202 where I asked:
And what happens when maintenance payments for the children (after separation and divorce) do not keep coming and the abused has to meet the abuser in court? It can be ugly, but is often saved from facing the abused by a lawyer who does the representation and makes the case. Well, that's what can happen Down Under.
Click to expand...

Your avoidance means that you committed a red herring fallacy in your response.
 
JohnDB said:
Of course you are correct.
Our sins are removed when forgiven. There is no remembrance of them. Divorcees don't get a check mark by their name. They do have to live with the earthly consequences of their actions. (This earth doesn't forgive)

Remarried couples shouldn't get divorced just to remarry their original spouses as that is destroying yet another family and trying to slap God's name on it as if it was a good thing. (Actually it's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit)

Sins are sins and forgivable. Only the sin of judgmentalism and unforgiveness is THE toughest for God to forgive.

I won't debate you... Especially when I agree.
Click to expand...

:thumb
 
OzSpen said:
I'm simply affirming that no matter what the rights and wrongs of what led to the divorce, when God forgives he cleanses the slate of sin clean. The divorce cannot be undone and the slate of the human hearts of those involved are clean of sin.

They should go on and live in the light of God's glorious forgiveness. This means, in practice, fleeing from abusive relationships where people are harmed or at risk of harm.

You may not like that conclusion, but your view keeps people living in sin, even though they have received God's forgiveness - which is an oxymoron.

Oz
Click to expand...
I agree with your first two paragraphs.
I don't understand the last one and I think it's time to stop.

I do confirm that I believe every effort should be made to stay in a marriage.

W
 
Wrg1405 said:
Just a quick question.

What constitutes adultery? At what point is adultery committed?
Click to expand...
To put it Rollo's way:
The Act before marriage. (fornication)
The Act after a divorce. (adultery)
The Act with anyone other than your spouse. (adultery)

In fact, read Mathew 5:27-28
God is always examining our heart.

This is why it's so complicated Wrg...

W
 
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Wrg1405 said:
Does this then give grounds for divorce?
Click to expand...
No.
Not usually but maybe. Depending upon the situation.
It's again all about the heart and motives.
Each marriage is about two individuals becoming one in unity. Now granted sins will be divisive in nature but that doesn't mean that the two personalities should divorce.
Even sexual sins of the heart.
Until the day comes that it separates them from God...and just like the day when Sampson got a haircut (which he thought he could get away with) it's over.

And someone will end up in the Misery/humility box for a while.
 
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