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I do not see Matthias as the 12th Apostle. I do believe that Peter literally drew straws and they picked Matthias. But when It comes to Apostles, only God chooses. And Matthias was mens choice.

I read that and wasn't sure how to take it. They said God was to choose and then cast lots. I'm still not sure.

Hello Edward,

If there was one other Apostle that had lots cast for their apostleship, I could see Matthias as an Apostle. In the case of all the Apostles, man had not a word, action or thought in the process of Choosing any Apostle.

I believe Matthias is in the bible to show us that.
 
I read that and wasn't sure how to take it. They said God was to choose and then cast lots. I'm still not sure.


I cant remember the correct words.. the OT priest did a lot of casting lots....

Any one ? wasn't there a name for the stones or lots? @Jason maybe you know what I am thinking about sorta down the lines of a roll of the dice?
 
I read that and wasn't sure how to take it. They said God was to choose and then cast lots. I'm still not sure.


I cant remember the correct words.. the OT priest did a lot of casting lots....

Any one ? wasn't there a name for the stones or lots? @Jason maybe you know what I am thinking about sorta down the lines of a roll of the dice?
that is what casting lots is called. the umin and thummin were similar to a Ouija board.
 
yet if isreal is NOT a church then the law returns and the way of salvation for any man is by mosaic ordinance in the millennium. I don't recall paul loosing his name or inhertence cause he was a Christian.
 
ow that His Apostles shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel...?

I don't see this.
Only eleven apostles stayed true to Jesus.
Who is the 12th?
Matthias? Barnabas? Paul?

Your assumption is obviously Matthias but he was not there.

A better reading is that those who have followed Jesus to the end will sit on thrones ruling all of Israel.

Scripture teaches us plainly that Matthias took the place of Judas.

Why wouldn't you read this literally rather than metaphorically as in all believers ?

Hello Eventide,

I enjoy reading your posts and IMO you are rightly dividing the word when it comes to Israel/Church. I want to carry out a thought and See what you think.

I do not see Matthias as the 12th Apostle. I do believe that Peter literally drew straws and they picked Matthias. But when It comes to Apostles, only God chooses. And Matthias was mens choice. And the choice was in the Bible for us to see that men do not choose Apostles, God does. Gods choice was Paul.

I believe this is what Matt 19:30 is speaking of on one level. Paul, the last Apostle chosen by God will be first. Another level being Gentiles and Jews.

SOOO, if I believe this, what doctrine does it affect down the road for me? IOW At what point will you and I bump heads if I believe it is Paul and you believe it is Matthias?

If you had to believe it was Paul, what doctrine or belief would have to change for you? I get the feeling in your belief system, that you cannot have Paul on one of the 12 thrones, why is that? If my assumption is wrong, Forgive me and disregard if my assumption is incorrect.

Just curious, you have obviously given this more thought then me.

Gr8grace, it's an interesting aspect of this topic although not vital IMO.

Then again I think that it's fairly clear that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and not one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I don't understand why the scriptures would show us Matthias being chosen by lot if it wasn't true.
 
One thing is certain...

In the regeneration, when the Son of man sits in the throne of His glory, His Apostles will sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This is clearly future so it means that this is post resurrection of the dead.
 
Scripture teaches us plainly that Matthias took the place of Judas.

Why wouldn't you read this literally rather than metaphorically as in all believers ?

Hello Eventide,

I enjoy reading your posts and IMO you are rightly dividing the word when it comes to Israel/Church. I want to carry out a thought and See what you think.

I do not see Matthias as the 12th Apostle. I do believe that Peter literally drew straws and they picked Matthias. But when It comes to Apostles, only God chooses. And Matthias was mens choice. And the choice was in the Bible for us to see that men do not choose Apostles, God does. Gods choice was Paul.

I believe this is what Matt 19:30 is speaking of on one level. Paul, the last Apostle chosen by God will be first. Another level being Gentiles and Jews.

SOOO, if I believe this, what doctrine does it affect down the road for me? IOW At what point will you and I bump heads if I believe it is Paul and you believe it is Matthias?

If you had to believe it was Paul, what doctrine or belief would have to change for you? I get the feeling in your belief system, that you cannot have Paul on one of the 12 thrones, why is that? If my assumption is wrong, Forgive me and disregard if my assumption is incorrect.

Just curious, you have obviously given this more thought then me.

Gr8grace, it's an interesting aspect of this topic although not vital IMO.

Then again I think that it's fairly clear that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and not one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I don't understand why the scriptures would show us Matthias being chosen by lot if it wasn't true.

I agree, its a minor but interesting to dive into.

Gal 1:1~~Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),

In Acts 1 we see Peter acting as an agent to the Lord. Requiring God to Choose between 2 men that they had picked out. Peter, was still very legalistic at this point of time in His life. I think that Matthias is there for us to see that men do not choose Apostles and The Lord was teaching Peter a lesson in the process. We never hear of Matthias after this time.
 
Scripture teaches us plainly that Matthias took the place of Judas.

Why wouldn't you read this literally rather than metaphorically as in all believers ?

Hello Eventide,

I enjoy reading your posts and IMO you are rightly dividing the word when it comes to Israel/Church. I want to carry out a thought and See what you think.

I do not see Matthias as the 12th Apostle. I do believe that Peter literally drew straws and they picked Matthias. But when It comes to Apostles, only God chooses. And Matthias was mens choice. And the choice was in the Bible for us to see that men do not choose Apostles, God does. Gods choice was Paul.

I believe this is what Matt 19:30 is speaking of on one level. Paul, the last Apostle chosen by God will be first. Another level being Gentiles and Jews.

SOOO, if I believe this, what doctrine does it affect down the road for me? IOW At what point will you and I bump heads if I believe it is Paul and you believe it is Matthias?

If you had to believe it was Paul, what doctrine or belief would have to change for you? I get the feeling in your belief system, that you cannot have Paul on one of the 12 thrones, why is that? If my assumption is wrong, Forgive me and disregard if my assumption is incorrect.

Just curious, you have obviously given this more thought then me.

Gr8grace, it's an interesting aspect of this topic although not vital IMO.

Then again I think that it's fairly clear that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and not one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I don't understand why the scriptures would show us Matthias being chosen by lot if it wasn't true.

I agree, its a minor but interesting to dive into.

Gal 1:1~~Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),

In Acts 1 we see Peter acting as an agent to the Lord. Requiring God to Choose between 2 men that they had picked out. Peter, was still very legalistic at this point of time in His life. I think that Matthias is there for us to see that men do not choose Apostles and The Lord was teaching Peter a lesson in the process. We never hear of Matthias after this time.

And we also never hear of the twelve other than Peter, James, and John... Would we assume they're no longer Apostles since we don't hear of them after Israel is cut off ? Not IMO.
 
Gr8grace, it's an interesting aspect of this topic although not vital IMO.

Then again I think that it's fairly clear that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and not one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I don't understand why the scriptures would show us Matthias being chosen by lot if it wasn't true.

I agree, its a minor but interesting to dive into.

Gal 1:1~~Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),

In Acts 1 we see Peter acting as an agent to the Lord. Requiring God to Choose between 2 men that they had picked out. Peter, was still very legalistic at this point of time in His life. I think that Matthias is there for us to see that men do not choose Apostles and The Lord was teaching Peter a lesson in the process. We never hear of Matthias after this time.

It interests me. I haven't thought it out, Why can't Paul be the 12th Apostle and occupy a Throne to rule Israel. I honestly do not see a problem with it. Could you explain in detail if you have a spare moment?

Thank you.
 
Gr8grace, it's an interesting aspect of this topic although not vital IMO.

Then again I think that it's fairly clear that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and not one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I don't understand why the scriptures would show us Matthias being chosen by lot if it wasn't true.

I agree, its a minor but interesting to dive into.

Gal 1:1~~Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),

In Acts 1 we see Peter acting as an agent to the Lord. Requiring God to Choose between 2 men that they had picked out. Peter, was still very legalistic at this point of time in His life. I think that Matthias is there for us to see that men do not choose Apostles and The Lord was teaching Peter a lesson in the process. We never hear of Matthias after this time.

It interests me. I haven't thought it out, Why can't Paul be the 12th Apostle and occupy a Throne to rule Israel. I honestly do not see a problem with it. Could you explain in detail if you have a spare moment?

Thank you.

Because Paul was raised up to take the gospel of God's Son to the Gentiles.

That was his ministry... Just as we are told that Peter, James, and John are the Apostles to the circumcision.

Why make these distinctions if there are no distinctions ?

IMO it's very obvious to read and hear the difference between these Apostles... for example, after all of Paul's epistles to the church of God, the scriptures return to a more Jewish context with James, Peter, and John's epistles... With Hebrews as well.

Because once The Lord is finished building His church, the focus will once again be upon Israel, as we see their miraculous deliverance in the time of the end..
 
This sort of gives new meaning to Romans 9 where we read of The Lord loving Jacob...

Who is Jacob ?

Jacob is... I S R A E L ...

Israel is God's elect, just as the church of God is His elect.
 
In the fullness of times...

Things in heaven (the body of Christ), and things on earth (Israel of God) gathered together in one, in Christ.

His elect...

These are the things which that merchant man sold all that he had to purchase... One he hid in the field and one he gathered from the sea...

That pearl of great price..
 
Israelites.



Peter was speaking to Israelites... he is one of the Apostles to the circumcision.

Who did God make a covenant with as in I will make a New Covenant...

With Israel... although that's future, and presently Israel is cut off and their house has been left desolate. This is clearly what the book of Acts is teaching us... the gospel of God's Son going to the JEW FIRST, and then after they continually rejected IT... the Lord raised up the Apostle to the GENTILES.

How is this difficult to see ?

Its clear to me God promise to Abraham didn't fail in that his descendants would inherit the land shown to Abraham. But even the first covenant had terms and conditions curses and blessings. Many did believe and followed Jesus. God has only one family. Jew, Gentile, Male, Female. It surprised the Apostles that God also poured out His Spirit (same one that the apostles freely received) on the gentiles. But that also was fortold. "I will make you a light to the gentiles..." Isaiah 49:6 God is the God of all mankind. Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world. I do believe the Lords Kingdom will once again be associated at the 2nd coming with a nation of a people belonging to God. But after the 1000 years the new Jerusalem will come down out of heaven and Gods place will be on a new earth with man. Those that love God will inherit that city.

R.

And His covenant will not fail... All Israel shall be saved, after the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.

THEN shall the Deliverer come from Sion and turn ungodliness from JACOB.

One last thing...

You didn't respond to a single scripture which I took the time to write here. I'm being generous with this one although if you'd like to ignore what has been written, then don't expect very much response from me.

Speaking of ignoring... it's what the Apostle to the GENTILES does not want you to be ignorant of lest ye become wise in your own conceits.

That ISRAEL is blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in...

But that same Apostle stated Gods promise did not fail as not all Israel is Israel. Ref Children of the Promise. As in "based on a promise" not the law. Here we are 2000 years later and God still circumcises the hearts of those under a new covenant with the Holy Spirit. (Christ in us) No other covenant exists. At the start Jews and gentiles were all grafted into the same true vine. (Jesus, through whom we live) So then what is a jew and what is a gentile in this day and age? Why are you talking about Israel as a nation does not bring salvation to its people. Jesus stated His Kingdom was not of this world. That was the eternal Kingdom promised by God. A kingdom that can never be destroyed. Flesh and blood can't inherit that kingdom. The "land" God showed Abraham was promised to His descendants and it was through Jacob that His offspring will be reckoned.

R.
 
But that same Apostle stated Gods promise did not fail as not all Israel is Israel. Ref Children of the Promise. As in "based on a promise" not the law.

That's right, any Israelite was justified by their faith, not by keeping the law... and this doesn't mean that all Israelites are of the "Israel of God".. but once again, only those who were justified by faith.

Here we are 2000 years later and God still circumcises the hearts of those under a new covenant with the Holy Spirit. (Christ in us) No other covenant exists.

This is true now for the body of Christ, and is yet future for the Israel of God.

Ignoring the mystery is serious R.

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..

Do you understand what that means ?

You probably believe that the church of God is Israel... right ? If that's true, then the mystery makes absolutely no sense at all with respect to what the Apostle to the Gentiles is warning Christians about.

At the start Jews and gentiles were all grafted into the same true vine. (Jesus, through whom we live) So then what is a jew and what is a gentile in this day and age?

In Christ there NEITHER Jew or Gentile.. outside of Christ the Jew and Gentile clearly remain... as even we are taught to give none offense, to the Jew, the Gentile, or to the church of God.

Why are you talking about Israel as a nation does not bring salvation to its people. Jesus stated His Kingdom was not of this world.

Not yet it isn't... but it shall be, when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.

That was the eternal Kingdom promised by God. A kingdom that can never be destroyed. Flesh and blood can't inherit that kingdom. The "land" God showed Abraham was promised to His descendants and it was through Jacob that His offspring will be reckoned.

R.

Here's a perfect reason to look at post #3 and #5 concerning His Kingdom coming... at the times of restitution of all things. Would you please reference the scriptures in those posts, and then let me know if you believe that it is speaking of the past, present, or future ?
 
The world to come...

That is perhaps one of the most staggering things of all to consider...

That His Kingdom is coming...

In that Day, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ...

Which shall come as a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.
 
T H E W O R L D T O C O M E . . .

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. but one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.

But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Worthy is the Lamb...
 
It interests me. I haven't thought it out, Why can't Paul be the 12th Apostle and occupy a Throne to rule Israel. I honestly do not see a problem with it. Could you explain in detail if you have a spare moment?

Thank you.

Because Paul was raised up to take the gospel of God's Son to the Gentiles.

That was his ministry... Just as we are told that Peter, James, and John are the Apostles to the circumcision.

Why make these distinctions if there are no distinctions ?

IMO it's very obvious to read and hear the difference between these Apostles... for example, after all of Paul's epistles to the church of God, the scriptures return to a more Jewish context with James, Peter, and John's epistles... With Hebrews as well.

Because once The Lord is finished building His church, the focus will once again be upon Israel, as we see their miraculous deliverance in the time of the end..

Ok, I completely agree with you. But I am talking about when the focus becomes Israel once again.

I believe Paul is one of the 12 Apostles on the 12 Thrones. And we the Church Are witnesses along with Him to Israel.

But Like we have been saying It is minor. You keep preaching these distinctions between the Church and Israel. They should be seen by the believer.
 
Ok, I completely agree with you. But I am talking about when the focus becomes Israel once again.


If I am understanding your views ... We will go back to shadows again?

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
 
Ok, I completely agree with you. But I am talking about when the focus becomes Israel once again.


If I am understanding your views ... We will go back to shadows again?

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Absolutely not Reba. In the Mill. there will still be people having babies and living physical lives. They will still have the choice to make.

Christ will rule on the earth in the Mill. and some will still not choose Christ, Even with perfect environment and a perfect Judge. And perfect witnesses(you and I)

Its hard to fathom, with all of this that Satan will still have a Army of people with Him at the end of the 1000 years.
 
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