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This is kinda crazy theology, but, many choose to believe this concept of.... "oppps, i just cussed, or i just chose to watch an "R" rated movie"....so now im lost AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN, so let me confess it and confess it and confess it and confess it, and then im saved again and again and again and again".
No, 'many' do not believe that. I'm convinced that theology has little representation in the church. Besides, the scriptures are very clear that once you lose it, you can't have it back. You only get to lose it once.

and some are holding onto their faith like a ball and chain hoping that in the end, if they didnt forget to do it the one day they were hit by a truck and died, they dont have to burn in the end.
It is required that a person continue to believe to continue to be saved. This has nothing to do with 'working' for one's salvation. Faith has never been a damnable work, and it never ever will be. In fact, faith is the very thing that secures salvation for us. It has NEVER been part of Paul's works that can not justify. Faith is the very thing that does justify. Without it Christ's continuing ministry in heaven (Hebrews 7:25 NASB) on your behalf ceases, because faith is how it got activated for you, and how it stays activated for you.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)
 
kidron,


Christians, after they become believers, need to confess their sins to receive God's forgiveness - to wipe the slate clean, to be pardoned.

Oz

OzSpen,

To receive God's imputed righteousness is what is known as the Atonement.
We dont confess sins for this, as this is a free gift... ("" the gift of Righteousness"")
Are you familiar with this gift?
So, upon hearing the Gospel, and being convicted by the Holy Spirit, We trust in Christ, receive Him by faith as Lord and Savior.
God then Saves us.....HE does it, He Saves Us, based on this process. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Its known as Redemption.. The redemptive work of the Cross.......Its known as Justification by faith...and through this faith, once and for all, God imputes to us His very Righteousness.. We have become born again...and that then becomes our "Son of God" standing, and it is eternal because the Holy One who gave it to us is Eternal, which defines the end result as eternal.
That is to say, we are now positionally born again and adopted INTO God's family, for eternity.
We have become "joint heirs" with Christ, and have entered into the Kingdom of Light,... we now being referred to as "Children of the Light"....as Jesus is the "Light of the World"....we are a part of THIS Light., as "Jesus is IN YOU the Hope of Glory" and you are "In Christ".
We are kept in this eternal position by the same means that created us to be in it originally., and this has nothing to do with confessing anything subsequent to being born again... While its everything to do with being redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb.
Its a redemptive process of Atonement whereby God Saves us through the Lord Jesus Christ's sacrifice whereby redeeming all "believers" from all their SIN (plural) and esteeming each as His very own righteousness.
Each and every believer has the very righteousness of Christ as their own, and that is the only reason God accepts them and esteems them as a "Son".
Confessing sins, has nothing to do with it.
Nothing.
Salvation is God giving you His Righteousness so that because of this righteous standing...God can accept you, fellowship with you, and call you His own.
This is known as being Saved.
 
It is required that a person continue to believe to continue to be saved. This has nothing to do with 'working' for one's salvation. Faith has never been a damnable work, and it never ever will be. In fact, faith is the very thing that secures salvation for us. It has NEVER been part of Paul's works that can not justify. Faith is the very thing that does justify. Without it Christ's continuing ministry in heaven (Hebrews 7:25 NASB) on your behalf ceases, because faith is how it got activated for you, and how it stays activated for you.
)

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JB,

The verse you quoted, vs Heb 7:25 , that you striped of context and recreated as a theological subversion, is actually a reference in truth, contextually, to vs 24, which is explaining that the reason that Jesus is always found, BY RIGHT making intercession, and will never stop doing this on behalf of the born again, is because this is what a function of the High Priest does..
vs 24.
You falsely wrote that this ministry ends on behalf of a believer, and that is dishonest, as the verse does not even imply that, much less say it or teach it.

So, you mislead, you misquote, and you will continue to do it, because that is what you do.
If you dont mind, do not post directly to me, as you will not hear, you will not care, and your entire game is to try to confuse by scriptural manipulation or misquotation other believers here with your obsession on your idea that Faith Kept saves, and nothing God did through Christ will do it.
Also, JB, do not PM me with your nonsense, as you did that more then enough the last time i was here.
No need.
Just run along.


<K><
 
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One of those lies being being that since no Christian will ever be sinless, that makes it so it's okay to rationalize continued, unrepentant sin.

Most believers who think they are sinless or are even sinning less have been fooled by sin into some other more than likely worse forms of sin. You know, like lying hypocrisy.
 
"14Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” (John 5:14 NIV)


1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?
4So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sisterc but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
(1 Corinthians 5:1-2,4-5,9-13 NIV) (
Note the non-OSAS in vs.5)

16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16 NIV)

"1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One." (1 John 2:1 NIV)

I'm pretty familiar with the scriptures Jethro.
 
Most believers who think they are sinless or are even sinning less have been fooled by sin into some other more than likely worse forms of sin. You know, like lying hypocrisy.
You have to stop tearing down people who are finding victory over their sin in Jesus Christ.
There really are believers who are growing up into the likeness of Christ. Former alcoholics, former rage-aholics, former prostitutes, former homosexuals, former thieves, and so on. Stop destroying the church by discouraging believers with this insane doctrine of yours that all Christians are doomed to the slavery of sin. It's simply not true. God gave us his Holy Spirit so that we don't have to serve the flesh: "16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. " (Galatians 5:16 NASB)
 
I'm pretty familiar with the scriptures Jethro.
Well, the devil must have snatched them out of your heart then. Because if you did know them you would not have said, "We are supposed to recognize that sin is an inherent condition of the flesh, and a box that we can't work our way out of".
 
Well, the devil must have snatched them out of your heart then. Because if you did know them you would not have said, "We are supposed to recognize that sin is an inherent condition of the flesh, and a box that we can't work our way out of".

Nobody becomes sinless after salvation. That much is a fact. 1 Tim. 1:15

IF converts are made via lies I'd suggest they are at a disadvantage from the start.
 
The verse you quoted, vs Heb 7:25 , that you striped of context and recreated as a theological subversion, is actually a reference in truth, contextually, to vs 24, which is explaining that the reason that Jesus is always found, BY RIGHT making intercession, and will never stop doing this on behalf of the born again, is because this is what a function of the High Priest does..
vs 24.
You falsely wrote that this ministry ends on behalf of a believer, and that is dishonest, as the verse does not even imply that, much less say it or teach it.
Listen carefully.
Hebrews 7:25 NASB shows us that the ministry of Christ MUST CONTINUE FOR THE BELIEVER. Christ can never retire, he can never take a break, he can never stop interceding on our behalf or else his ministry is just as ineffective as was the Levites. Now, this being true, that Christ's ministry MUST continue and never stop, when a person no longer believes they put an end to Christ's ministry on their behalf, just as if Jesus had quit the ministry because of death, or whatever.

Christ's ministry is secured by faith, but if you no longer have that faith Christ's ministry effectively ends for you. And if it ends, so does it's effect, for as I've shown you it must continue in order to be effective. You don't get to keep the effectiveness of a ministry that has ceased for you because you stopped believing in it. Get it? So, stop teaching people they can stop believing and they still have Christ's ministry to save them. That is impossible according to Hebrews 7:25 NASB. His ministry MUST continue for you to continue to have it's effect. And it continues through your faith....the same way you received it to begin with.
 
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Nobody becomes sinless after salvation. That much is a fact. 1 Tim. 1:15
Nobody thinks it does. Nobody.

IF converts are made via lies I'd suggest they are at a disadvantage from the start.
You apparently sin in the same ways and to the same degree as the day you were born again? That's sad.
But just because that's true for you doesn't make it true for the rest of us. AND....others finding gradual and sure victory over sin through the Holy Spirit does not make them self-righteous. That's not the definition of being self-righteous.
 
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with your obsession on your idea that Faith Kept saves, and nothing God did through Christ will do it.
What do you think the faith you have to keep to the end is in?
It's in what "God did through Christ", of course!

"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB bold mine)

"12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB bold mine)
 
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Nobody thinks it does. Nobody.

When it comes to sin few believers are all that honest about it Jethro. Christians tend to sell others a bill of goods on that subject. If anything the battles with sin intensify for believers. Romans 7:13, 1 Tim. 1:15.

IF we advised newbies that they were going to face head on confrontations with Satan and his messengers there might be a lot less takers.

You apparently sin in the same ways and to the same degree as the day you were born again? That's sad.

As noted, for most it takes on worse forms. Believers love to pretend they are something they are not. It's a side effect of the very real battles we get drawn into and engage.

But just because that's true for you doesn't make it true for the rest of us.

Case in point. Romans 3:9 remains a fact, regardless.

Unbelievers are drawn by the goodness of God. Romans 2:4. We learn to "truthfully examine" our own sins with time/experience, after belief. Newbies may know, remotely, that their lives are being manipulated by forces unseen, and are sicked by the evil and manipulations it brings to their lives, but they really don't have a clue as to what the problems really are or stem from in the scriptural realities of the matters.

Most are taught and told it's only a personal problem. It's not.
 
When it comes to sin few believers are all that honest about it Jethro. Christians tend to sell others a bill of goods on that subject. If anything the battles with sin intensify for believers. Romans 7:13, 1 Tim. 1:15.

IF we advised newbies that they were going to face head on confrontations with Satan and his messengers there might be a lot less takers.



As noted, for most it takes on worse forms. Believers love to pretend they are something they are not. It's a side effect of the very real battles we get drawn into and engage.



Case in point. Romans 3:9 remains a fact, regardless.

Unbelievers are drawn by the goodness of God. Romans 2:4. We learn to "truthfully examine" our own sins with time/experience, after belief. Newbies may know, remotely, that their lives are being manipulated by forces unseen, and are sicked by the evil and manipulations it brings to their lives, but they really don't have a clue as to what the problems really are or stem from in the scriptural realities of the matters.

Most are taught and told it's only a personal problem. It's not.
The mistake you are making is insisting that Christians are doomed without exception to remain the fornicator, the thief, the pornographer, the whatever they were when they came to Christ. That is a lie from the pit of hell. I have never heard you share about what the Bible says about putting sin to death and not walking in the flesh anymore and being a new creation by the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16 NASB). Not once. Why is that not part of your gospel?

Look at this change of character that the Bible talks about and which people struggling in sin need to hear about:

"Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NASB)

"22Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God." (1 Peter 1:22-23 NASB)

We lie to people if we tell them that they can never be changed in this life. That simply is not the truth of the gospel. That is a discouraging message that tears down and destroys the church, not builds it up. The promise of God is that we would no longer be slaves to sin.
 
The mistake you are making is insisting that Christians are doomed

I've never made that claim and don't know why you think that quite frankly. I am NOT doomed to lie and be a hypocrite. How about you?
without exception to remain the fornicator, the thief, the pornographer, the whatever they were when they came to Christ.

There is no "discharge" from the war Jethro. And yes, we are drawn into war in faith. Romans 7:23, Eph. 6:11-12. I'm not prone to let the enemy off the hook by denying there are battles and engagements.

We are to alienate ourselves from that working, assuredly. But to deny that working is a fact only makes us lying hypocrites, and sin regains it's dominion in those postures. But none in that state really perceive it, because yes, they have been deceived. Being deceived means they don't know. The deceived believe things that are not TRUE.

The moment we think we are "not like the other sinners" SIN AND EVIL has set and locked the trap on the mind that the pharisee of Luke 18:11 had upon his own mind. That "religious phony" actually had worse/more problems than the common sinner.
 
As for witnessing we make our personal witness of the "reality" of Jesus in our own respective ways. For me, I tell them that I know the Love of God in Christ because I "felt" His Love in my heart and His Love changed me. This is not a difficult witness to make for me, because it is completely true. It also is not offensive to anyone.

To make it even easier, from there, to introduce Jesus to anyone, I tell them that God is in fact LOVE, and that God has "shared" His Spirit with us, in Love. Yes, God in Christ really does love them as well. Ask Him. He'll show you. Everyone has already been "prepped" by the "warmth" they have in their own hearts when they love. God in Christ is both The Originator and the AMPLIFIER.

That's pretty much all it takes. I've NEVER had anyone reject this form of witnessing Jesus. I gave up on trying to make proselytes of sects. It's way too complicated to get others to understand the mountains of "rules, terms and conditions" to be a christian in most sects. In retrospect I'd consider most of that stuff quite irrelevant on the 'front end' of witnessing.
 
I've never made that claim and don't know why you think that quite frankly. I am NOT doomed to lie and be a hypocrite. How about you?
No, no, don't evade the point.
You claim that Christians are doomed to be enslaved to sin. And that anyone who claims to be growing up into the image of Christ is a liar and a hypocrite.

There is no "discharge" from the war Jethro.
Nobody says there is.
In time we are trained by knowledge and the power of the Holy Spirit to win more and more battles.
But you are certain that to claim that's happening is to be a self-righteous lying hypocrite. Getting better and better at overcoming the temptations of the flesh to sin through the power of the Holy Spirit is in no way the definition of being self-righteous.

We are to alienate ourselves from that working, assuredly. But to deny that working is a fact only makes us lying hypocrites, and sin regains it's dominion in those postures.
I have never met or talked to a single Christian who thought the battle with sin has ended now that they are saved. But I have met some who are battle trained and no longer live the rest of their lives for sin:

"1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2 NASB)

Of course this doesn't mean sinless perfection (nobody thinks that), but it surely means measurable, visible progress and victory in the battle with the lusts of the flesh.

"solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." (Hebrews 5:14 NASB)

But you are calling people who get to this place of wisdom and power and self control lying self righteous hypocrites.
The moment we think we are "not like the other sinners" SIN AND EVIL has set and locked the trap on the mind that the pharisee of Luke 18:11 had upon his own mind. That "religious phony" actually had worse/more problems than the common sinner.
Pharisees weren't even saved. You are talking about how unbelievers act, not maturing believers.
Maturing, battle hardened, capable Christians know they are not better sinners than the rest of the church. The battle teaches them to look on weaker brethren with compassion and concern, not with contempt and disdain and superiority. The 'Christian' who does that is either, simply not saved, or hasn't even been tested yet to know he's not better than everyone else.
 
That's pretty much all it takes. I've NEVER had anyone reject this form of witnessing Jesus. I gave up on trying to make proselytes of sects. It's way too complicated to get others to understand the mountains of "rules, terms and conditions" to be a christian in most sects. In retrospect I'd consider most of that stuff quite irrelevant on the 'front end' of witnessing.
Well, of course, what enslaved sinner wouldn't like a sugar coated gospel that strips out the obligation to resist the temptations of the flesh. The problem is, that's very unrealistic. That kind of person once they do accept Christ they will become a part of the multitude of hypocrites in the church who feel no obligation whatsoever to be changed by the grace of God because they think God's grace is there for them to languish in their sins with impunity.

"11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age" (Titus 2:11-12 NASB)

Yes, let's leave this part of the gospel out so people won't get turned off to it, or worse, be changed by the grace of God into a lying, self righteous hypocrite who obeys the Spirit of God.
 
No, no, don't evade the point.
You claim that Christians are doomed to be enslaved to sin. And that anyone who claims to be growing up into the image of Christ is a liar and a hypocrite.

IF you're telling potential believers they are or can make themselves sinless, I'd suggest you'd be lying through your teeth. There is no such presentation in the scriptures. Paul made no such claims nor did anyone else. Paul landed on the opposite conclusion. Romans 7:17-21, 1 Tim. 1:15.

It's not my problem if some believers get suckered into delusions about the facts. That's part of being in the battle. Some are defeated by deceptions, particularly on this count.

So, preach on if you think believers are made sinless. I however am pretty well NOT interested in playing that lie like the phony in Luke 18:11. Lying hypocrisy is REAL and a lot of "believers" fall therein.

I think they'll be saved anyway, but they will probably get an eye opener when they find out on the other end of judgment that they were REALLY no better than any other sinner. Romans 3:9.

I don't personally think the evil present with any of us is any better than the evil present with anyone else myself. Romans 7:21. You may think that is so. I don't. So I don't waste my time trying to "justify" myself or those I witness to because there is no justification for the evil present with any of us available or even on the table.

That's why we are SAVED BY THE GRACE AND MERCY OF GOD IN CHRIST.

Evil present with us ain't getting a foothold in the door, contrary to what many think.
 
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