If someone said to you they want to become a Christian

[MarkT]

Mark,

In my very secular country, that advice would be one of the supreme ways to turn peole right off the Gospel.

I suggest that we approach a secular society like Paul did on the Areopagus (Acts 17:22-34 NLT). He found common ground with them:

'Men of Athens, I notice that you are very religious in every way, 23 for as I was walking along I saw your many shrines. And one of your altars had this inscription on it: ‘To an Unknown God.’ This God, whom you worship without knowing, is the one I’m telling you about'.​

Then he moved towards proclamation of the true God, God's creating human beings, and calling all people everywhere to repent for there is a day of judgment coming.

Paul did not say: Here's a MSS of the Scripture; go away and read it. He engaged in proclamation, starting with establishing common ground. I'm convinced that is where we should begin also.

Oz

Why would it turn people off? The premise is they want to be a Christian. Are you saying they want to be a Christian, but they don't want to read the Bible? OK. Isa. predicted that too - Those who can read will say it can't be read. Those who can't read will say they can't read. Isa. 29:11-12
Isa. 29:9
Stupefy yourselves and be in a stupor,
blind yourselves and be blind!
Be drunk, but not with wine;
stagger, but not with strong drink!
10 For the Lord has poured out upon you
a spirit of deep sleep,
and has closed your eyes, the prophets,
and covered your heads, the seers.

11 And the vision of all this has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed. When men give it to one who can read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.” 12 And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.”

13 And the Lord said:
“Because this people draw near with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
while their hearts are far from me,
and their fear of me is a commandment of men learned by rote;
14 therefore, behold, I will again
do marvelous things with this people,
wonderful and marvelous;
and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hid.” Isa. 29:9-14

It's an evil generation. But that's the way it's supposed to be. Prophecy doesn't give us any choice in the matter. People are always going to come up with different ways, but prophecy tells us what will be, and if it comes from God, it will take place. Makes sense too because there are so many views and denominations. The prophecy is, 'In that day the deaf shall hear the words of a book and out of their gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind shall see.' Isa. 29:18 And it is so, and I believe reading the Bible is the only way.

 

[OzSpen]

Why would it turn people off? The premise is they want to be a Christian. Are you saying they want to be a Christian, but they don't want to read the Bible? OK. Isa. predicted that too - Those who can read will say it can't be read. Those who can't read will say they can't read. Isa. 29:11-12
Isa. 29:9
Stupefy yourselves and be in a stupor,
blind yourselves and be blind!
Be drunk, but not with wine;
stagger, but not with strong drink!
10 For the Lord has poured out upon you
a spirit of deep sleep,
and has closed your eyes, the prophets,
and covered your heads, the seers.

11 And the vision of all this has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed. When men give it to one who can read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.” 12 And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.”

13 And the Lord said:
“Because this people draw near with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
while their hearts are far from me,
and their fear of me is a commandment of men learned by rote;
14 therefore, behold, I will again
do marvelous things with this people,
wonderful and marvelous;
and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hid.” Isa. 29:9-14

It's an evil generation. But that's the way it's supposed to be. Prophecy doesn't give us any choice in the matter. People are always going to come up with different ways, but prophecy tells us what will be, and if it comes from God, it will take place. Makes sense too because there are so many views and denominations. The prophecy is, 'In that day the deaf shall hear the words of a book and out of their gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind shall see.' Isa. 29:18 And it is so, and I believe reading the Bible is the only way.

Mark,

You didn't address what I wrote that Paul's approach at the Areopagus is a better way to deal with secular unbelievers today. Use the common ground to proclaim the Gospel. See Acts 17:22-34.

Telling secular people to go read that extensive book, called Scripture, is like telling them to forget the discussion and go to hell.

As people who love the Lord, we have a biblical responsibility to move from common ground to the Gospel in our discussion and proclamation: 'For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life' (John 3:16 NLT).

I consider this is a better approach to non-Christians in my secular Australia, rather than your, 'I would tell them to read the Bible, understand, and live' (see #59).

Oz

 

[MarkT]

Mark,

You didn't address what I wrote that Paul's approach at the Areopagus is a better way to deal with secular unbelievers today. Use the common ground to proclaim the Gospel. See Acts 17:22-34.

Telling secular people to go read that extensive book, called Scripture, is like telling them to forget the discussion and go to hell.

As people who love the Lord, we have a biblical responsibility to move from common ground to the Gospel in our discussion and proclamation: 'For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life' (John 3:16 NLT).

I consider this is a better approach to non-Christians in my secular Australia, rather than your, 'I would tell them to read the Bible, understand, and live' (see #59).

Oz

What do you want me to say? My way is to follow the Lord, and what he said by the prophets. Sorry, but the Lord said the words of a book will open the eyes of the blind. Isa. 29:18 This is the day. We have the book. Read it! In Paul's day people believed in the gods. They were very religious. Acts 17:22 Obviously they wanted to hear what Paul was teaching. So this is a very different time, a time of darkness. There's never been anything like it.

This is the day of the book. You're telling me your friends can't read? I have no sympathy for that. Your secular friends are condemned already if they do not believe in the name of the only Son of God.
John 3:18
He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[OzSpen]

What do you want me to say? My way is to follow the Lord, and what he said by the prophets. Sorry, but the Lord said the words of a book will open the eyes of the blind. Isa. 29:18 This is the day. We have the book. Read it! In Paul's day people believed in the gods. They were very religious. Acts 17:22 Obviously they wanted to hear what Paul was teaching. So this is a very different time, a time of darkness. There's never been anything like it.

This is the day of the book. You're telling me your friends can't read? I have no sympathy for that. Your secular friends are condemned already if they do not believe in the name of the only Son of God.
John 3:18
He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Mark,

I'm also following the Book. Acts 17 is in The Book.

I did not say a word about my secular friends not being able to read. Not a word! That's a straw man fallacy.

Asking secular people to read a book the length of the Bible is as unrealistic as my asking you to consider another approach to reaching non-Christians. I encourage you to use the Areopagus model of Acts 17 from THE BOOK.

Oz

 

[MarkT]

Mark,

I'm also following the Book. Acts 17 is in The Book.

I did not say a word about my secular friends not being able to read. Not a word! That's a straw man fallacy.

Asking secular people to read a book the length of the Bible is as unrealistic as my asking you to consider another approach to reaching non-Christians. I encourage you to use the Areopagus model of Acts 17 from THE BOOK.

Oz

If they are not religious, if they deny God even exists, then what are you talking about common ground for? The Athenians were religious men, so Paul could talk to them about God. What are you going to say to those who deny God exists?

You say it's unrealistic to ask them to read a book the length of the Bible. That's a good one. But we can assume they have heard the good news. The premise is they want to be Christians. So I said, read the book, understand and live. But if they are not willing to read the book, then what can you do?

The Lord said it will happen, that in that day the words of a book will open their eyes. But before that can happen, I believe in confession, so that might work. Ask God for forgiveness. But there must be a believing heart in them.

 

[OzSpen]

If they are not religious, if they deny God even exists, then what are you talking about common ground for? The Athenians were religious men, so Paul could talk to them about God. What are you going to say to those who deny God exists?

You say it's unrealistic to ask them to read a book the length of the Bible. That's a good one. But we can assume they have heard the good news. The premise is they want to be Christians. So I said, read the book, understand and live. But if they are not willing to read the book, then what can you do?

The Lord said it will happen, that in that day the words of a book will open their eyes. But before that can happen, I believe in confession, so that might work. Ask God for forgiveness. But there must be a believing heart in them.

Mark,

I will use a few of your statements to demonstrate that we can take the Areopagus common ground model, even with secular Aussies who deny the existence of God and don't know the Gospel.

Mark: 'If they are not religious, if they deny God even exists, then what are you talking about common ground for?'

Oz: We can have common ground with secularists. To my Aussie secular mate, Johnny, I can say, 'I observe that you are very religious. What is religion? Oxford dictionaries online gives one definition of religion as, 'a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion' (Oxford dictionaries online 2017. s v religion). What is one thing that you follow, Johnny, with great passion? (wait for an answer to which I will respond). I see that over the summer months you, Johnny, have followed cricket on TV with great interest. You loved the T20 Big Bash, the ODI (one day internationals) between Australia and Sri Lanka is what enthuses you right now. You plan to watch the Australia vs India tests and ODI on Fox Sports.

Johnny. Bunk! That's not religion. That's just a keen interest that I have in a sport that I love.

Oz. So you have a great love for cricket? That's what the Oxford dictionary describes as religion. What say we discuss this further at a time convenient for you? I'd also like you to think about how God knows you cannot be an atheist. No person in the world is an atheist, even though they claim to be. What do you think God's view would be? (I'll be heading to the content of Rom 1:18-32 NLT.) Johnny, does God believe in atheists?

Mark: 'But we can assume they have heard the good news'.

Oz: It's time you took a visit to a very secular country like mine and walked down the main street of Brisbane CBD, Queen St., and asked 10 people this question: 'Would you please tell me the content of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? What must happen for any person to gain eternal life and go to be with God at death?' You will get an answer that is outside of your assumption. Many, many people in Australia have NOT heard the good news because it is not proclaimed publicly very often.

Mark: 'The premise is they want to be Christians. So I said, read the book, understand and live. But if they are not willing to read the book, then what can you do?'

Oz: Nobody will want to be Christians until they have had the bad news followed by the Good News, the Gospel, proclaimed and they see their need. Asking a God-denying antagonist to the Christian faith to read this book of 1252 pp (that's how many pages are in my ESV) is like asking a drowning man in the ocean to take another drink of salt water.

I do wish you would get out of your gold-fish bowl and encounter people who are secularists who don't have a clue about the real Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Oz

 

[MarkT]

Mark,

I will use a few of your statements to demonstrate that we can take the Areopagus common ground model, even with secular Aussies who deny the existence of God and don't know the Gospel.

Mark: 'If they are not religious, if they deny God even exists, then what are you talking about common ground for?'

Oz: We can have common ground with secularists. To my Aussie secular mate, Johnny, I can say, 'I observe that you are very religious. What is religion? Oxford dictionaries online gives one definition of religion as, 'a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion' (Oxford dictionaries online 2017. s v religion). What is one thing that you follow, Johnny, with great passion? (wait for an answer to which I will respond). I see that over the summer months you, Johnny, have followed cricket on TV with great interest. You loved the T20 Big Bash, the ODI (one day internationals) between Australia and Sri Lanka is what enthuses you right now. You plan to watch the Australia vs India tests and ODI on Fox Sports.

Johnny. Bunk! That's not religion. That's just a keen interest that I have in a sport that I love.

Oz. So you have a great love for cricket? That's what the Oxford dictionary describes as religion. What say we discuss this further at a time convenient for you? I'd also like you to think about how God knows you cannot be an atheist. No person in the world is an atheist, even though they claim to be. What do you think God's view would be? (I'll be heading to the content of Rom 1:18-32 NLT.) Johnny, does God believe in atheists?

Mark: 'But we can assume they have heard the good news'.

Oz: It's time you took a visit to a very secular country like mine and walked down the main street of Brisbane CBD, Queen St., and asked 10 people this question: 'Would you please tell me the content of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? What must happen for any person to gain eternal life and go to be with God at death?' You will get an answer that is outside of your assumption. Many, many people in Australia have NOT heard the good news because it is not proclaimed publicly very often.

Mark: 'The premise is they want to be Christians. So I said, read the book, understand and live. But if they are not willing to read the book, then what can you do?'

Oz: Nobody will want to be Christians until they have had the bad news followed by the Good News, the Gospel, proclaimed and they see their need. Asking a God-denying antagonist to the Christian faith to read this book of 1252 pp (that's how many pages are in my ESV) is like asking a drowning man in the ocean to take another drink of salt water.

I do wish you would get out of your gold-fish bowl and encounter people who are secularists who don't have a clue about the real Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Oz

It's God who does the calling. I'm just a servant. So my approach would be to give them a Bible, RSV. If they read it - one day they might be looking for something to read and God calls them - and they understand it, then the Scripture will be fulfilled in them.

When are you going to tell your people to read the Bible? Ever?

I don't know about this generation. Is it that bad that there are people who have never heard of Christianity?

 

[WIP]

This is getting too personal. You are both defending what you say but not what Scripture teaches. Let's get back to the topic of how to deal with someone who wants to become a Christian and not how our own perspectives are right while others' are wrong.