I'll take Ezekiel 38 for 200 Alex... : )

[Vic C.]

Ezekiel and the antichrist

I will forego directly quoting from any sites and go straight to Scripture. I believe the key to understanding who the eight beast is right here...

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

"Five are fallen" - If we go back and look at all the great 'military' empires that precede John's writings, we can just about conclude they were; the Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians and the Greeks.

"and one is" - This would have to be the empire currently in charge, which are the Romans.

"other is not yet come" This is the empire we have to speculate about. Fortunately, we have both history and hindsight to help us.

"the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" - A key passage. The eighth is of the seven; meaning, the eighth is somehow 'related' to one of the seven. This is also the beast that "goeth into perdition".

We also have a couple more verses that are key.

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

This really narrows down the "playing field". A fatal head wound, that was somehow healed. It could be a would that was inflicted during the "beast's" reign and then was healed; or it could be a wound inflicted sometime in the distant past, then was healed. Prophesy isn't specific.

But...

Add to this the fact that we cannot determine who or what this beast is without taking into account lineage. Throughout the Bible, lineage is important; so important that there are many books in the Bible that begin with lineage. Even moreso is lineage important in prophesy. Unfortunately, many gloss over the lineage.

Ezekiel was mentioned in another post. This is where we need to start, since Ezekiel's name for Antichrist is Gog. We read that Gog was prince over the land of Magog. Magog was Japheth’s son; who was the son of Noah. Josephus mentions that this nomadic family set roots in the north, most likely in the areas we now know as eastern Germany and western Russia. They may have migrated to other parts, (including Rome) but this is where they are when the prophesy was revealed.

With just this little bit of Biblical information, I believe the antichrist will rise up out of these areas. There is more that I will address in another post.

I will say this much; I don't believe antichrist is Rome, a Pope or even a former Roman Emperor, I do think one of them will be the false prophet though.

 

[Cameron]

Yes,
I tend to agree with your perspective which is grounded in a futuristic understanding. As you know there are four ways people generally approach this issue:

Futurism (all Second Coming and Last Days, End Times prophecies are Future. When Jesus says He's coming "soon", it is still future)

Preterism (all or part of the above was fulfilled in 70 AD and "soon" is understood hyperliterally as to be 70AD and Revelation MUST have been written before 70AD despite contrary evidence)

Historism ( When Jesus said "soon", the process began and is still going and we're living through it now) -

Idealism/Spiritualism (typically amillinnial Catholics who see "soon" as an idea and Revelation for our spiritual edification primarily)

The AC is a man. Some people say the AC term is never used of an individual. The Trinity is never used of God either. So that argument does not wash. However, the term "man" or "prince" is applied to this person in Daniel 7 and Daniel 9 and 2 Thessalonians 2. His characteristics tie him directly to the passages you've cited. So the AC/Gog is a man.
So, I agree with you, the AC is a man, of Roman/Arian lineage that has fragmented into Europe.

 

[LastDayRemnant]

Ezekiel and the antichrist

I will forego directly quoting from any sites and go straight to Scripture. I believe the key to understanding who the eight beast is right here...

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

"Five are fallen" - If we go back and look at all the great 'military' empires that precede John's writings, we can just about conclude they were; the Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians and the Greeks.

"and one is" - This would have to be the empire currently in charge, which are the Romans.

"other is not yet come" This is the empire we have to speculate about. Fortunately, we have both history and hindsight to help us.

"the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" - A key passage. The eighth is of the seven; meaning, the eighth is somehow 'related' to one of the seven. This is also the beast that "goeth into perdition".

We also have a couple more verses that are key.

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

This really narrows down the "playing field". A fatal head wound, that was somehow healed. It could be a would that was inflicted during the "beast's" reign and then was healed; or it could be a wound inflicted sometime in the distant past, then was healed. Prophesy isn't specific.
though.

Ok, i'm gonna stop you and add this to the mix. Go back to when the Angel is talking to John. It is AD 95-96. So now keeping that in mind it makes it much clearer.

Pretend the Angel is talking to you in AD 96.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen,(before ad96) and one is,(alive in AD 96) and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was,(before now in AD 96) and is not,(dead now in AD96) even he is the eighth,(future after AD96) and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The antichrist MUST be one one the fallen five kings BEFORE AD 96.

I'll keep adding more as we go.

LDR

 

[Vic C.]

The antichrist MUST be one one the fallen five kings BEFORE AD 96.

Could be. It could also be that his bloodline has to be traced back to someone who was a ruler from one of the five. That is why I saod lineage is so important here. Also, you still have to deal with Rev. 13:3 and 13:12.

Just a thought; lets forget about which one of the first five are involved and see if we can determine the seventh, given the verses we have at hand so far. 8-) I believe this is important, otherwise the messenger could have easily stopped aften mentioning the first five. But he couldn't because of the several verses that mention seven heads. This seventh head surely has something to do with it.

 

[LastDayRemnant]

The antichrist MUST be one one the fallen five kings BEFORE AD 96.

Could be. It could also be that his bloodline has to be traced back to someone who was a ruler from one of the five. That is why I saod lineage is so important here. Also, you still have to deal with Rev. 13:3 and 13:12.

Just a thought; lets forget about which one of the first five are involved and see if we can determine the seventh, given the verses we have at hand so far. 8-) I believe this is important, otherwise the messenger could have easily stopped aften mentioning the first five. But he couldn't because of the several verses that mention seven heads. This seventh head surely has something to do with it.

I myself don't think that the seven is that important. It just states that there are seven and the antichrist is the eighth, BUT, he is one of the seven.

Read this again.

The Angel told him that there are seven ,but he is one of the eighth. But he also said there were five that were fallen in AD 96. So five were before AD 96. Then the Angel says the beast WAS and is NOT. So the Angel just told John the beast was not alive right then. He had just told John that the beast WAS meaning BEFORE their conversation.
And he told him that their were five fallin BEFORE, so he has to be one of those five.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen,(before ad96) and one is,(alive in AD 96) and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

OK, five are fallin and the beast was and is not which means he is one of those fallin five.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was,(before now in AD 96) and is not,(dead now in AD96) even he is the eighth,(future after AD96) and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition

So according to the Angel the only one who could qualify as the beast would be someone who was before AD 96 and not alive in AD 96

So now we need to find out which of these five died of a deadly head wound and whose name adds up to 666 in Johns native tongue Aramaic.
LDR

 

[Cameron]

Remember 96 AD is an assumption. A Preterists would vehemently fight for 68AD as the date. I think the only evidence for mid-90s AD is Irenaeus who got it from Polycarp who was alive at the time of the writing be it mid 90's or late 60's. I tend to side with Irenaeus but we can't be dogmatic about the date - just strongly convicted. Although, I agree that mid-90s s probably right.

So next is defining the context of Rev. 17 and 13. Is John talking about the kings or the kingdoms with kings? See the diff? If just kings, then you could potentially suggest that they are Roman emperors. Let's call this the Roman Emperor scenario.
or...
The next one we could call the "beast empire" scenario and that relates these images to those of Daniel and the successive empires. Reference Daniel 2, 7 and 8. Personally, I think this option has a higher level of connectivity with the symbology and system already employed in the O.T. ...however, I can see how the 7-headed hyrda of Rev. 13 could be seen as the Roman Empire (4th in succession to Daniel") except for one glaring item. Daniel Describes one-headed beast with 10 horns and this is a 7-headed one that gets 10-horns in Revelation 17.

Another reason why I would hesitate to see this as Roman Emperors is the description of the 7-headed beast to the harlot known as "great Babylon". Many people miss the importance of who "great Babylon". I've explained some of it in the 6th Bowl thread. However, the defining exercise would be to Compare the description of Revelation 17 and particularly 18 with Isaiah 24. There are many other passages in Isaiah, but 24 is the best because it describes the utter fall of the world in x7 format and it will never rise again. The sound of music and marriage wont be found in it. The people defile the world because of the their sin. Sound familiar to what you read in Rev. 18? It should. Again, remember what happens to the cities of the nations when God remembers "great Babylon" in Revelation 16:19 ... they fall. ITEOTWAWKI.

So why does "great Babylon" ride the beast? What is the connection?

"great Babylon" is man's system of spiritual prostitution and material gain.
"the 7-headed beast" are the empires of power inspired by the "god" of this world. Satan offered the empires to Jesus in Matthew 4. They are sustained by his power of sin and depravity upon which the harlot gains her strength and is responsible for the persecution of all righteous people from all times due to the systems that sin perpetuates.

In the larger panorama of the Bible I would tend to this understanding since "great Babylon" is so well defined already as I've partly described.

Another reason why I tend to the head = beast kingdom idea is the description at the beginning of Revelation 13. The descriptions are very similar to an amalgamation or combination of all the previous empires rolled into one. Rome was really never that at all, nor were there ever clearly 10 kings - even though Historists try to point to fragments people groups in Europe they invariably forget to name a few of the other important ones pretending they don't exist like the Gauls (Asterix and Obelix rule as an old comic strip!)

So again I see it as future empires and look for empires that "control" Israel.

Who were they? We know from the Bible that Israel was subjected clearly by 6 historical empires. This is to me, the critical key.
-- Egyptians the obvious first - hence the Exodus. Then after a period of self-rule they disobeyed and came under number 2:
-- Assyrian influence. Fortunately only 10 of the 12tribes were captured and God destroyed the Assyrian rule on the front door steps of Jerusalem. Egypt and Babylon then fought for dominance in the area with
--Babylon coming out on top after a brief war.
Babylon #3 (site of the Tower of Babel) then took over control of Judah and Benjamin and eventually destroyed them and took away captive were Daniel received his visions of why and what will happen when Israel finally repents and God reconciles to them. Then babylon was toppled by a THIEF in the Night named Cyrus ad he set up the
-- Perisan - Mede empire #4 which harassed Greece #5 and attacked her colonies. The Spartans stopped one such attack creating anger between the two nations. Then Alexander came with a vengance and destroyed the Persians and MEdes and took over for
--Greece which then splintered into a confederation of Greek territories that fought amongst themselves. After they were weak,
--Rome began seizing their territory and marched into Jerusalem in 63BC becoming the 6th Empire to dominate the Jews and finally wipe them out.

What remains is 7 and 8. In the beast emperor scenario there are some options. The one I prefer the 7th beast that exists for the first 3 1/2 years of the 70th Seven and this is superseded by the authority and power of the AC when he sets up the AOD creating a new 8th global beast that is the combo of all before it and in many ways will represent a global society and "cities of the nations".

 

[LastDayRemnant]

So next is defining the context of Rev. 17 and 13. Is John talking about the kings or the kingdoms with kings? See the diff? If just kings, then you could potentially suggest that they are Roman emperors. Let's call this the Roman Emperor scenario.
or...
The next one we could call the "beast empire" scenario and that relates these images to those of Daniel and the successive empires. Reference Daniel 2, 7 and 8. Personally, I think this option has a higher level of connectivity with the symbology and system already employed in the O.T. ...however, I can see how the 7-headed hyrda of Rev. 13 could be seen as the Roman Empire (4th in succession to Daniel") except for one glaring item. Daniel Describes one-headed beast with 10 horns and this is a 7-headed one that gets 10-horns in Revelation 17.

Ok Cameron, good point ... let's concentrate on the seven heads with ten horns and the one headed beast with ten horns.

In Daniel 7 it is talking about the four Kingdoms
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

The fourth kingdom is the antichrists.

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


The ten horns represent the ten nations that align themselves with each other and the antichrist. The little horn that comes out of them is the antichrist who Subdues three kings.

This is explained on down the seventh chapter.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Now lets go to Rev, 17

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Read that as one sentence.

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth and there are seven kings

The seven heads has a two-fold meaning as it represents the mountains and the previous kings that had ruled.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

It says the seven heads represent the seven mountains the woman sits on. We all know which city is called the "city of the seven hills"
Then it says "and there are seven kings" connecting the two together so the seven heads are representing the seven mountains AND the seven kings that had ruled already. Remember the antichrist is the eighth, but is one of the seven.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth

The woman is the great city who sits on the seven mountains.
(the city of the seven hills....ROME)

 

[Vic C.]

you both bring up some excellent points, but in light of scripture, I have do disagree with the current and popular theory of who the "City of Seven Hills" is.

(sorry for the length of the post, but I needed to complete my thoughts. )

So next is defining the context of Rev. 17 and 13. Is John talking about the kings or the kingdoms with kings? See the diff? If just kings, then you could potentially suggest that they are Roman emperors. Let's call this the Roman Emperor scenario.

Correct, they are not rulers, but Kingdoms or Empires. I believe Daniel points that out fairly well.
_____________________________________________________________

I used to subscribe to this notion too. I used to think that the woman and the seven hills referred to Rome. But further research on this revealed that in Jesus' time, Jerusalem was also known as a city of Seven hills. This caused me to rethink my whole "Rome is the antichrist" theory.

The seven hills are; Scopus, Nob, Mount of Corruption <--[2 Ki 23:13] (all three are summits of the Mount of Olives), Mount Zion (the original), Ophel Mount, Ft. Antonia 'Rock' and the southwest hill (the 'new' Mt. Zion). Just for the record, Babylon was also considered a Seven hilled City. There was also Byzantium, where Constantine wished to build his "New Rome", another seven hill city.

A map of the surrounding areas with the mounts ancient names.

Now consider the Book of Revelations is just as much about the Jews and Israel as it is about the Christians. In that light, I see not Rome but Jerusalem as being the City in question here. While this may or may not have significance in determining the antichrist, it does for me, rule out Rome, an emperor or a Pope.

Also take note that antichrist has a vested interest in seeing the Temple rebuilt. Not in Rome, but in Jerusalem, of course. Another significance are the colors, precious metals and jewels mentioned in Revelation.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

These colors, metals and jewels are associated with Israel of Old throughtout the OT.

2 Sam 1:24 Ye daughters of Israel, weep over Saul, who clothed you in scarlet, with other delights, who put on ornaments of gold upon your apparel.
_____________________________________________________________

Israel as a corrupt nation can be seen throughout Isaiah's first three chapters.

Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

Isa 3:16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

And Jeremiah...

Jer 2:19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.
Jer 2:20 For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.

Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

And Ezekiel...

Ezek 16:13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom....
...Ezek 16:15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
Ezek 16:16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.
Ezek 16:17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,

Ezek 16:28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.

Ezek 16:35 Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:
Ezek 16:36 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

Ezek 16:41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.

Again, this does not directly shed light on the person or personna of the antichrist, but it does take the focus away from Rome. You want to know who the Harlot, or whore is, just read your OT.

Some of my resources...

http://askelm.com/prophecy/p000201.htm
http://jesus-messiah.com/prophecy/rev-13.html

 

[Cameron]

Hey this is a great thread! You both are right for the reasons you bring up. However, both are also types of a larger reality. Let me explain.

I’d like us to consider starting with the context of Rev 17 for a moment. Immediate context is important. Let’s first identify the attributes of the Harlot:

Rev. 17:1 sits on many waters
Rev. 17:2 kings of the earth have had spiritual prostitution with her
Rev. 17:2 the spiritual prostitute is amazingly spiritually sexy and enticing
Rev. 17:3 in the wilderness we see a relationship of the harlot to the 7-headed beast
Rev. 17:3 the kings who commit prostitution with her support her
Rev. 17:4 the scarlet and purple and gold is actually a historical reference by an Greek historian, who name escapes me at the moment in describing the wealth and splendor of Babylon.
Rev. 17:4 her cup is FULL (God judges when people’s cups are full)
Rev. 17:5 she’s a mystery, so not the real Babylon but a “great†version of Babylon of which ancient Babylon is only a type. “Mother of†= Archetype.
Rev. 17:6 Drunk with the blood of faithful saints and martyrs.
Rev. 17:18 the prostitute is that “great†city.

1) Note the usage of “great†– I explain this in my 6th bowl thread. When ever “great†is used of Euphrates, Babylon or city, it meant to represent its “great†ultimate type or “Archetypeâ€Â.
2) In support of that she is seated on many waters. Waters are peoples of the earth. So by this definition alone she is not one city.
3) She’s responsible for the blood of the saints and martyrs. That also is not the hallmark of Rome alone or Jerusalem alone. Many other empires have been involved. Remember our list: (Thebes of Egypt, Nineveh of Assyria, Babylon of the Chaledeans, Susa of Persia-Mede, Athens of Greece, Roma of Rome) -> this happens to point to the idea of the 7-headed beast as a conglomerate 8th by its description in rev. 13

Looking at Rev. 18, the similarities continue to point to a “greater than†concept. I’ll only mention the new ones, since many of these others are repeated:

Rev. 18:3 merchants have grown rich from her luxuries/materialism/commerce/make-a-buck
Rev. 18:4 “my people†are in her and need to come out of her (in the world and not of it)
Rev. 18:5 God has remembered her iniquities! This is KEY! What happened when God remembered to punish “great†Babylon in Rev. 16:19? Answer: The cities of the nations fell.
Rev. 18:10 and 18:18-19 “great†city / mighty city
Rev. 18:20 Apostles and prophets in heaven who suffered under her are to rejoice for justice has been served.
Rev. 18:21 Her system will be FOREVER eliminated
Rev. 18:24 Why? Because her system was responsible for ALL the blood of the righteous before God.

1) Again, no one city can take this claim. All cities of all nations fit this description of persecuting all the righteous.
2) Rev. 16:19 is the working definition of “great Babylon the harlot†= all the cities of the globe

Lest this be missed, Isaiah continually spoke of Babylon in this archetypal fashion.

Isaiah 24

24:1 The LORD is making the earth empty
24:4 the earth will wither away
24:5 Why? Because of its inhabitants
24:7-11 The merriment and joy is gone in similar fashion to that of “great†Babylon’s
24:12 city broken down or city of chaos = allusion to Tower of Babel where ancient Babylon was built.
24:18-20 the 7-fold destruction of the earth – IT WILL FALL AND NEVER RISE AGAIN just as “great†Babylon in Rev. 18:21
24:21-22 angles are being shut in prison like will happen in Rev. 20

Isaiah 13
13:1 an oracle of Babylon
13:11 I will punish the WORLD for its evil
13:9 the Day of the Lord comes to destroy sinners of the land and desolate the land …
13:10 like the trumpet and bowls that start to do this just after the signs of the 6th seal in Rev. 6

Therefore,
Given our working definition of “great Babylon†in Rev. 16:19, and earth = “Harlot†concept repeated through out Rev. 17, 18 and Isaiah, particularly again noting that she sits on many waters we can identify the 7-head beast in the same fashion in a 1 to 1 correspondence.

1) The description of the beast in Rev. 13 does suggest a conglomerate
2) The many waters description again suggest a conglomerate
3) The identity of “great†Babylon as the global conglomerate of all times while sitting on the 7-headed beast again points to a conglomerate.
4) Daniel’s pattern of the statue and the beasts in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 point to a global progression through time to a point when a new kingdom is set up that forever eliminates all of those that came before it (same idea as Revelation 18:21 and Isaiah 24:18-20)
5) The clay mixed with iron is a conglomerate mix. I’ve suggested that the clay, like the stone, is “religious based†Clay is also what man is made of. Hence the clay represents a man-made religion like Islam mixed with the iron of the Roman might. Even today the two are like this, together but not mixing. The territory of the ancient Roman empire is 50% brittle clay today.

Hence, I believe, as I’ve stated before that the immediate context points to not just Rome or Jerusalem but a greater archetypal reality= the modern day system of man will be utterly replaced by Christ’s literal and physical kingdom! The 7-headed hydra that gives power to the harlotry system of man have this 1:1 relationship both global and ultimate in extent, hence the 8th empire is the conglomerate and it is the 8th in it’s final form of 10 kings (or 8 since 3 were overthrown) that will burn the prostitute and force focused worship on the AC and his image. This idea of image goes all the way back to the Garden and God reason for making man in His image. And the devil has a plan for inverting this in the End which I’d love to explore in another thread sometime.

 

[Vic C.]

:angel:

Yes, a nice discussion so far... no egos. I am not adament about my position. I've read both Robert Van Kampen and Marvin Rosenthal's books and even they ask their readers to consider Scripture and other historical sources and come to their own conclusions. My main concerns are to keep the faith and be ready for whatever God has in store for me in the future. About the only thing I am almost certain about is that we will be "caught up" before the Lord unleashes His wrath on an unbelieving world.

You both give me lots to think about. I'll be back with more for sure. : I can't wait 'til Judy comes back and adds her perspective to this thread. Desn't anyone else have some input? :-?

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY. :-D

 

[LastDayRemnant]

Yes Vic, i think we all can agree that we are going to go thru the tribulation. That is my main point if we agree on nothing else is to be ready to be persecuted. Once the antichrist shows up we will recognize him whoever he is. Now haveing said that i believe he will be a roman citizen because i believe Daniel 9 teaches us that.

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Now we know it was the Roman Titus who trampled the city in AD 70. And it says it is the people of the prince. (romans). The next verse talks about the antichrist just as it says it will be the people of the prince.(romans)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I really believe that without a doubt the bible teaches the antichrist will be a roman emperor. Now where does he reside? I will work on this a little more but it makes no sense if he was Jewish that he would make a peace treaty with his own country. Also, some research into Nero will show that the early church taught that he would come back from the dead as the antichrist. Now it had to be Paul teaching that at the early church and that can't be a coincidence to me. Just look at 2nd thess and he hints at it.

2nd thess,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Who was Paul talking about "for the spirit of iniquity doth already work" and what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time


Paul wrote this in AD 54 and Nero was in power and Paul was saying it was him ,but he wasn't to be revealed yet. Read 2nd thess in your bible and you can see what Paul was saying.

 

[Cameron]

In regards to the AC - I don't disagree that he is of Roman lineage - Both the germans and Russians have claimed some stake to that in their Empires - the Kaiser in Germany and Third Reich (the first being Rome) or in Russia the Czar. It's how you define Roman:Roman territory and or lineage is how I would define it and in that case Vic's idea is quite acceptable. How knows, he could be a Nero or a hitler or someone else that has been missed. This some one else as Elijah was accepted by Jesus in reference to John the Baptist. As far as I'm concerned this is also acceptable for the Two Witnesses or the AC if Jesus considers this type of fulfillment acceptable.

Regarding exact dates, it reallyis only conjecture. So it's really hard to be dogmatic here - best to be open ended about it andallow for a number of acceptable scenarios.