[__ Prayer __] I'm beginning to hate God

[stovebolts]

Northman,
The Apostle Paul quotes truth from pagan sources three times.

John 11:51
Berean Study Bible
Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation,

Caiaphas was not a believer, yet this Jew who was against Jesus could still prophesy about Jesus.

In my studies with both Rashi and Ramban, I have left shaking my head thinking to myself, "how in the world do you reject Jesus when you write about him so clearly?"

 

[Northman]

The Apostle Paul quotes truth from pagan sources three times.

I will start with yes. Yes. And even yes again. Absolutely correct.
I told a little story a bit while ago about something to do with medicine men/shamen in this area, a place loaded with pagans. Long story made short it involved one of them nearing the end of life and finally figuring out that the spirits that "helped" him weren't actually helping him at all. Truth. The man recognized a truth. That didn't mean you sat in front of that man to learn anything he had to say about God. You don't think that Paul saying stuff like that was more to let his own people know about how far they had gone in being wrong? Sorta like "Hey these people don't even know who God is and they can still act properly when it comes to (insert matter here) and you can't?"

Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation,

Caiaphas was not a believer, yet this Jew who was against Jesus could still prophesy about Jesus.

Wasn't the whole theme of this that he didn't actually know what he was saying and was simply used by God? Another person it would be unwise to sit down in front of and learn about God. I see these sorts of roles are all throughout the Bible though, people getting used by God and clueless it's happening.

In my studies with both Rashi and Ramban, I have left shaking my head thinking to myself, "how in the world do you reject Jesus when you write about him so clearly?"

There are probably loads of theories on that. The only facts I see on the matter in place are Romans 11:25 coupled with the absence of John 16:13. There could be more, I don't know.

Like I said, different standards. We both have understanding that we can each pick up "pieces" of God littered about.

I understand everything went off topic and as bad or as good as it was this sort of stuff wasn't really what I was on about. A quip came in to do with Jews saying there are 70 meanings to every passage. The statement was mostly endorsed without proof. Of course proof isn't required because it's just a false statement but had a culture attached to it to justify. There is absolutely no way there are 70 meanings to Luke 24:42. It's clear to see there is an almost romantic infatuation for some with the culture. It kills impartiality. This is the basis for asking why this stuff always has to come up. And not only come up, but be treated by a segment of the board population as if it's mystically untouchable because a Jew or Jewish culture said it, whether one or they actually did or not.

 

[Avalon1]

If I end up in hell, God is a liar for saying he'd save me for believing in him, and calling on him.

You have to believe in Him in order to avoid the judgement. You can't not believe in Him and expect to go to Heaven, that's not how it works.

Hebrews 11:6 (MEV)

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, for he who comes to God must believe that He exists and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

I'll be praying for you.

 

[Truthfrees]

I will start with yes. Yes. And even yes again. Absolutely correct.
I told a little story a bit while ago about something to do with medicine men/shamen in this area, a place loaded with pagans. Long story made short it involved one of them nearing the end of life and finally figuring out that the spirits that "helped" him weren't actually helping him at all. Truth. The man recognized a truth. That didn't mean you sat in front of that man to learn anything he had to say about God. You don't think that Paul saying stuff like that was more to let his own people know about how far they had gone in being wrong? Sorta like "Hey these people don't even know who God is and they can still act properly when it comes to (insert matter here) and you can't?"


Wasn't the whole theme of this that he didn't actually know what he was saying and was simply used by God? Another person it would be unwise to sit down in front of and learn about God. I see these sorts of roles are all throughout the Bible though, people getting used by God and clueless it's happening.


There are probably loads of theories on that. The only facts I see on the matter in place are Romans 11:25 coupled with the absence of John 16:13. There could be more, I don't know.

Like I said, different standards. We both have understanding that we can each pick up "pieces" of God littered about.

I understand everything went off topic and as bad or as good as it was this sort of stuff wasn't really what I was on about. A quip came in to do with Jews saying there are 70 meanings to every passage. The statement was mostly endorsed without proof. Of course proof isn't required because it's just a false statement but had a culture attached to it to justify. There is absolutely no way there are 70 meanings to Luke 24:42. It's clear to see there is an almost romantic infatuation for some with the culture. It kills impartiality. This is the basis for asking why this stuff always has to come up. And not only come up, but be treated by a segment of the board population as if it's mystically untouchable because a Jew or Jewish culture said it, whether one or they actually did or not.

just a few questions/thoughts:
1. were the jews in the OT filled/motivated/speaking by the Holy Spirit?
2. if yes - then how can any of us know for sure who is moved upon by the Holy Spirit?
3. if no then how can you read and trust most of the bible - 3/4 being written by jews before Jesus?

TESTIMONY
i have read jewish commentary - and i get excited to see the words of Jesus and the other NT writers are affirmed by jewish sages who lived before Jesus -

so what does that mean? - God was speaking to jews before Jesus came to earth - all writers of OT and some sages quoted in talmud - like gamaliel who was paul's rabbi before he met Jesus - the same gamaliel who told the jewish religious leaders to leave the disciples alone - Acts 5:39

this fact is recognized by jews when they finally read the NT for themselves - they are stunned to find what Jesus and NT writers said is very jewish - and the NT as the freshest best jewish wisdom - and most amazingly jews easily recognize Jesus as the long awaited Messiah all on their own - without anyone preaching to them - because they have studied talmud and recognize Jesus when they see Him in the NT

so jews studying talmud sets them up to believe and receive the NT when they get around to reading it

christians who find jewish gems can use it to better understand Jesus and the OT/NT writers - AND reach out to jews in greater biblical wisdom than most christians possess

to tell the truth the NT makes way more sense and comes so vividly alive for me when i see the historicity recorded in talmud

Jesus said wisdom comes out of the mouth of babes - Matthew 21:16 - the bible says God's wisdom came out of the mouth of a donkey - Numbers 22:28 - and the mouth of king saul - 1 Samuel 18:10 - and out of the mouths of many OT jews - Hebrew 1:1 - 2 Peter 1:21

if you want to limit the Holy Spirit and say He can't speak through jews who have not YET accepted Jesus as their Savior i can understand why you say it but i do most definitely disagree as per scriptures quoted

i appreciate your desire to keep the purity of the Holy Spirit and God's Truth - i feel the same way

i just think you are missing the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of people who have not yet received Jesus as Savior

iow the Holy Spirit can move on and through anyone He wishes to - saved or not

just as saved people can be moved on by the flesh and be carnal and speak apart from the Holy Spirit - 1 Corinthians 3:1 - 1 Corinthians 3:3

 

[Razeontherock]

Culture has an impact on language. For example, suppose an archeologist uncovers a newspaper headline 2,000 years from now. It reads "Seahawks beat Eagles," and theorizes this is due to evolution. So science goes out of it's way to accommodate the idea.

None of these people know anything about the NFL, that it's just reporting on a game.

In the same way, we can miss the meaning of Scripture due to not understanding the culture, the linguistic idioms, etc.
For example, when you see a number in Scripture, particularly a large number, it's often worthwhile to ask if it's a literal representation the way we use numbers today, or if it's more concerned with representing something else. This is because the people who wrote Scripture, and the people they were writing to, think differently than we do.

This is why we care about their culture.

 

[Northman]

1. were the jews in the OT filled/motivated/speaking by the Holy Spirit?

Just from the way the Bible reads, I'd say not many. Prophets were a minority and those who wanted them dead were the majority. Wasn't there a point where it got so bad where one figured he was all by himself but God had to show him there were some hidden?

2. if yes - then how can any of us know for sure who is moved upon by the Holy Spirit?

For the sake of being authority on scripture, it has to be prophet(BC) or apostle(AD).

and most amazingly jews easily recognize Jesus as the long awaited Messiah all on their own - without anyone preaching to them - because they have studied talmud and recognize Jesus when they see Him in the NT

Then why do we have so many in western lands? And after 2000 years. It just doesn't add up.

if you want to limit the Holy Spirit and say He can't speak through jews who have not YET accepted Jesus as their Savior i can understand why you say it but i do most definitely disagree as per scriptures quoted

I've posted already that I am the opposite of this understanding you are portraying. I believe God can and does use anyone. It's just that when it comes to unbelievers, they have no idea they are being used and are henceforth not an authority on God or anything to do with Him. Am I not getting this concept across properly? That even though figures like Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, and Caiaphas were used by God, they were not people to sit down with and get taught God's statues by.

christians who find jewish gems can use it to better understand Jesus and the OT/NT writers - AND reach out to jews in greater biblical wisdom than most christians possess

I realize that is very general. What was revealed by this "gem" though? I'm pretty sure all of us already understand that God can say different things to different people through the same verse. God reveals that though, not anyone's literature on God.

i just think you are missing the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of people who have not yet received Jesus as Savior

This is opposite from my reality. Probably most all other believers as well.

i appreciate your desire to keep the purity of the Holy Spirit and God's Truth - i feel the same way

Thank you.

I just wanted to say I appreciate question #2. That's what it takes to move something for me. If an apostle warns us against Judaising and not to return to the law, it is going to take someone in the exact same position or greater to revoke that.

To be clear, the only source mentioned of Jewish nature specifically was when Stove mentioned the commentary by the Ramban guy. Now I remembered his name from before when Jason said something about him so it's not like I haven't had time to look. As I understand it this guy was not BC anything. He was around in the 1100s. So yes I would consider a Jew at that time who did not accept Christ as being disconnected. A natural branch not spared so to speak.

 

[Razeontherock]

I don't know Hebrew. I don't advocate learning it because the Hebrew Scripture was written in no longer exists as a language and we don't have those texts. Already knowing modern Hebrew does give sincere hearts some level of insight, much like native Greek speakers enjoy. You and I can't likely attain this, nor did I mention it.

Understanding the culture in which Jesus lived still gives insight into His words. I don't see why anyone would want to diminish that. This directly addresses your originally stated concern.

It's very important to see how this pertains not only to the big picture, but also to our OP's issue:

Jewish culture was (is?) all about fellowship. It prevented the sort of situation he reports himself as being in. They didn't eat because they were hungry, that was seen as uncivilized. They ate to gather together. Many of their ideas are foreign to us, and so we miss the meaning of Scripture. We also miss the benefits.

Christianity is about restoring the benefits.

 

[WorshipWeapon]

Hey Essenaut I'm not going to judge you or anything because I completely understand where you're coming from. But I just want to say that everything passes at some point and gets better. God says to trust him and lean not on your own understanding. I know you will find peace at some point. But that doesn't mean that it will be soon. It can be a long time from now but at some point in time you will find the peace that you are looking for. God bless you Essenaut

Essenaut, Brock is onto something, here. When I talk to people who feel like they’re drowning in hopelessness or despair, I ask them to think about a time when they felt really wonderful, or really loved, or really free and safe. Then I tell them that they have experienced those things, which proves they can experience those things again. Anger and depression happen. Blaming isn’t really necessary, and it’s kind of a distraction.

I don’t recommend you flirt with befriending evil spirits! I don’t believe you really mean that. It’s the depression talking. This intense suffering you’re experience is not permanent. You are a much-loved child of an amazingly tender-hearted Father. I am praying that will become known to you.

Peace,
WW

 

[WorshipWeapon]

Is this or is this not a concept that we need to understand Jewish culture before we can understand Scripture? Scripture clearly states that it is God who reveals himself.

Dear Northman,

The roots of our faith are in Judaism. We Gentiles were grafted into that tree. The teachings, the overwhelming majority of Jesus’ words, are spoken to Jewish people. Understanding the culture of Jesus can only help us understand what He was saying. This concept is foundational to almost every Bible study I’ve ever read or participated in. It in no way diminishes the significance or necessity of illumination and revelation by the Holy Spirit. We study and meditate in order to give the Holy Spirit something to work with other than our blank slate (puppy brain).

I hope this helps.

Peace,
WW

 

[Razeontherock]

especially for today, why would anyone who follows Christ even be remotely concerned with what a rabbi has to say who doesn't follow Christ?

This is a valid question, and it does pertain to the OP's concerns. Please, everyone, before posting further, look at what section of the forum we are in here! Do we need a sticky telling us of the purpose?

Jesus was a Jew! That has never changed, because He doesn't change. Anti-Semitism is not of God, and may well feed the whole cycle of depression; nothing good comes from it.

Paul was informed by Rabbis. Jesus was informed by Rabbis. That He stood head and shoulders above the religious establishment of His day is in full evidence in Scripture.

Jesus was still a Jew. Contempt for Jews is contempt for Him.

 

[Razeontherock]

It seems as though every time I go to put the sugar into the lemonade, providence smacks the sugar out of my hand and smashes the pitcher. So why bother making lemonade in the first place?

Please don't be offended, but I just got this mental picture from what you said here, and had a good belly laugh. I'll try to explain. Your last post before this you said you wanted God to do something. So I see a literal vision of what you describe here, and - God did something!?!

Either that, or maybe it hasn't been Providence (aka God) knocking the sugar out of your hand. There's ample Scripture for this: Job and Daniel come to mind.

Some great advice for Christians across the board is to focus on what God has ALREADY done, speaking of "the finished work of the Cross."

Essenaut, can you share with us what you know of that? Then we can discuss that, in a way that will be meaningful to you.

That is more likely to bring you what you need than anything else I can imagine.