Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Allen Wynne, Dec 1, 2017.
What do you believe are some of the good points?
I didn't think the lounge was a debate forum.
As long as your debating opinion, I think it's ok.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Allen, you are saved by God's grace through your faith in him.If salvation requires work on our part then on that basis of works grace would no longer be grace.
How about if a person departs from the faith, and no longer believes?
Are they still saved?
Grace is the Holy Spirit by whom we are "born of the Spirit". The Spirit of grace.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6
Grace also teaches us to live righteously, and godly, in which we should deny ungodliness and not obey unrighteousness.
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, Titus 2:11-12
Here is the outcome of those who do not obey the truth, but rather, they obey unrighteousness.
to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:6-11
Here is the outcome of those who live according to the Spirit, who deny the unrighteous and ungodly desires of the flesh.
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
There is no partiality with God, and we will all stand before the Lord to give an account of our life, in which each of us will be judged according to our deeds.
We have been given a great, immeasurable treasure, and responsibility with which to impact humanity:
The treasure of the life of Jesus Christ, and the power of His Spirit.
We will all give account of what we did with the gift of His life and grace.
Here are some snap shots of that Day:
45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51
14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
According to a lesson in Sunday school, every Reformer believed this; it is not something unique to Calvinism.
I don't see this at all. There is much to consider here. Whose definition of good are we to use, ours or God's? What is the motivation behind the unsaved doing good deeds? God used utterly pagan nations to punish Israel, so could it not also be that in certain instances God uses unbelievers to do good deeds? Unless I am mistaken, this would be what Reformed believers refer to as common grace.
The rest of your post seems rather straw-manish. They believe in freewill, apart from hyper-Calvinists, and that Jesus died for all who were going to be saved. The mix of freewill and God's sovereignty is a mystery for every believer, not just those in the Reformed tradition.
Being a follower of Jesus, would it not be better to simply be a Christian? Rather than a hyphenated Christian? Calvinist-Christian. Lutheran-Christian, and so forth.
Take God's teachings through his Son. Not men's traditions named in their honor as they interpreted the Son's message.
If you accepted and truly trusted in Christ, you cannot lose your salvation.
If you walk away from the faith, enter into a different religion, or decide there is no God, you'll suffer the consequences of walling yourself off from what you first trusted was Christ and his finished work. However, because of the finished work of Christ which is to say we're under the grace of God due to Christ's dying for our sins, and not under the old covenant laws, we are co-identifiers with Christ. And in the new covenant through the grace of God. Not by anything we do ourselves to earn that.
That means too that we are kept by the power of God and His sovereign work.
If we can do something to lose our salvation, which is the gift of God and his grace, then we could work to save ourselves by works or by not sinning. Which is impossible. We are co-identifiers with Christ.
We can lose faith in Christ but he will not lose faith in us.
Yes, they are. Because they had nothing to do with being in the grace of God. If we can do something to lose our salvation, we could have done something to obtain it. Because the "I" is all powerful in regard to saving the soul itself. But that isn't the case.
We are saved by grace, not through any action of our own, so that none may boast. Salvation is a gift God gives. If we were truly in Christ, cleansed of all unrighteousness, we are his forever. No one can take us from his hand because the father gave us to him.
No one, means not even "I", can take me from the hand God put me in by his sovereign foreknowledge I was chosen for his grace, to be in the palm of his son.
You know, opinions are great and all, but when it comes to biblical doctrine opinion is meaningless when it comes to being backed up by scripture. Yes, I realize this is not a debate forum, however, when you make assertions about the bible you still need to back it up. Calvin made assertions after years of study, and wrote books about them. Ok, so some people don't "agree" with him on his assertions, but where is your biblical support to refute his claims? He did his due diligence, where is yours?
Agreed. Opinions are for ice cream.
What difference does it make if I post scripture?
You know very well that you could post yours and l could put mine.
How about considering that God IS love
1 John 4:8 and Calvinism utterly destroys this attribute of God.
John 3:16 destroys calvinsm.
Could you show me why it does Not?
Could you show me some verses that state God sends people to hell...who do not want to go there?
Not all will come ,God's foreknowledge allows them to choose not to.
You mean that the law and Isreal aren't forever ? To wit,that isreal will look more christian then Jewish when she repents? That the land Doesn't define what all of isreal is.
God's foreknowledge DOES NOT change what a person chooses.
Because God knows the future, it does not change the future.
I'm sure God just saves them Despite that choice.
If you know someone is unwilling to change in a position, do you waste time with them? I don't .though at times I forget.
How much more so does God knowing we won't repent ? Both positions exist but Go.ahead and think you have the will, (power) to choose.we really dont have the power to change.our desire to sin is greater then our will without Godly intervention. If God doesn't want us to change ,we won't.
Plenty of christians are in heaven but I bet plenty had character flaws God never changed. That's another thread,as that is another topic called santification.
I dont believe in calvinsm but you are missing the view of limited free will.,and assuming they teach no will.which they dont.our will to do is overridden by greater forces God, and to a lesser degree Satan and our flesh.nor do I buy God makes man to be perished but you can't ignore thar God before esau and Jacob were born knew and blessed Jacob .
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