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In My Opinion

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#41
According to a lesson in Sunday school, every Reformer believed this; it is not something unique to Calvinism.


Arminiam didn't agree with it. As also others did not.

Arminianism is based on theological ideas of the Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560–1609) and his historic supporters known as Remonstrants. His teachings held to the five solae of the Reformation, but they were distinct from particular teachings of Martin Luther, Huldrych Zwingli, John Calvin, and other Protestant Reformers. Jacobus Arminius (Jakob Harmenszoon) was a student of Theodore Beza (Calvin's successor) at the Theological University of Geneva. Arminianism is known to some as a soteriological diversification of Protestant Calvinist Christianity.[1] However, to others, Arminianism is a reclamation of early Church theological consensus.[2]

Dutch Arminianism was originally articulated in the Remonstrance (1610), a theological statement signed by 45 ministers and submitted to the States General of the Netherlands. The Synod of Dort (1618–19) was called by the States General to consider the Five Articles of Remonstrance. These articles asserted that

  1. Salvation (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the graciously-enabled faith (or unbelief) of man;
  2. The Atonement is qualitatively adequate for all men, "yet that no one actually enjoys [experiences] this forgiveness of sins, except the believer ..." and thus is limited to only those who trust in Christ;
  3. "That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will," and unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God's will;
  4. The (Christian) Grace "of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of any good," yet man may resist the Holy Spirit; and
  5. Believers are able to resist sin through Grace, and Christ will keep them from falling; but whether they are beyond the possibility of ultimately forsaking God or "becoming devoid of grace ... must be more particularly determined from the Scriptures."
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism


As I highlighted above, I believe, and know for sure, that arminianism is a reclamation of past early church doctrine. No theologian believed what Calvin taught: Double Predestination.
The early church protected itself from false doctrine.


I don't see this at all. There is much to consider here. Whose definition of good are we to use, ours or God's? What is the motivation behind the unsaved doing good deeds? God used utterly pagan nations to punish Israel, so could it not also be that in certain instances God uses unbelievers to do good deeds? Unless I am mistaken, this would be what Reformed believers refer to as common grace.
Good is good. We need a definition? Man that is unsaved is able to do good because he is NOT totally depraved. What are we, puppets that God "uses" us? Of course God could use anyone as He will, He is sovereign. But does this mean He uses each and everyone of us in this way? No. Because we have free will. Do you not believe we have free will? This is what the N.T. teaches. Was Jesus not fully human? He said "not MY WILL, but Yours be done" when He was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane.
I don't know about common grace. Grace is love. If God is Grace, why would He arbitrarily send anyone to hell? Does He shower us with Grace AND Hate to those He deems should be lost?


The rest of your post seems rather straw-manish. They believe in freewill, apart from hyper-Calvinists, and that Jesus died for all who were going to be saved. The mix of freewill and God's sovereignty is a mystery for every believer, not just those in the Reformed tradition.
I don't know what a straw man is. I just speak and say what's on my mind.
All of christianity has a problem reconciling man's free will to God's sovereignty.
I have come to my understanding of this, which I'd be happy to share if you wish.

However, how does a calvinist believe in man's free will, if the most important thing in his entire life (salvation) is NOT up to his free will to choose??

You say above that Jesus died for all who would be saved.
No. Jesus died for the whole world. It's up to each of us to CHOOSE to be saved.
1 John 2:2

Paul also says in Romans 5:8 that God demonstrated His love for us, that while we were still sinners, He died for us.
Who was Paul speaking to in Romans? Everyone, or just those few who would be saved??
 
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#42
I'm sure God just saves them Despite that choice.

If you know someone is unwilling to change in a position, do you waste time with them? I don't .though at times I forget.

How much more so does God knowing we won't repent ? Both positions exist but Go.ahead and think you have the will, (power) to choose.we really dont have the power to change.our desire to sin is greater then our will without Godly intervention. If God doesn't want us to change ,we won't.

Plenty of christians are in heaven but I bet plenty had character flaws God never changed. That's another thread,as that is another topic called santification.

I dont believe in calvinsm but you are missing the view of limited free will.,and assuming they teach no will.which they dont.our will to do is overridden by greater forces God, and to a lesser degree Satan and our flesh.nor do I buy God makes man to be perished but you can't ignore thar God before esau and Jacob were born knew and blessed Jacob .
God saves persons despite the fact they don't want to be saved?
So we have no free will?
Or we have limited free will...what's that? I could so what I want as long as God agrees with it?
Since he's omnipotent, I doubt I would get my way!
As far as someone changing and wasting time on them...sure, you can say this because you don't believe in free will. I do, so this is not a problem for me.

As to sin... So I just sinned and sinned before salvation because I didn't know God??
Not so. Not for me anyway. I was always a lilttle angel....:halo

You wanna talk sanctification. GO!
 
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#43
There is nothing to suggest it isn't....If you are going to make truth claims, you need to be prepared to give a reason as to why you believe they are true.
Oh, here we go, Allen vs. the mods again.
How long til I get thrown off again.

"Calvin backed his assertions with scripture. Where are is your scriptural support showing that he is wrong?"

This is Knotical's response.
Can you honestly say this is not looking for a debate.
Does this sound like a casual statement for the lounge?
Or are you bored and just looking for an argument?
 
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#44
Do you think it's ok to read someone's post stating that God picks some persons to be saved and not others without making a comment?
It's very difficult for me to let this just pass by.

What if someone said something mean about a spouse?
Shouldn't they be corrected?
If Calvin needs correction, it should be done in another thread in another forum where it can be debated.
Read the OP again.
You'll see your complaints here are not appropriate.
 
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#45
Oh, here we go, Allen vs. the mods again.
How long til I get thrown off again.

"Calvin backed his assertions with scripture. Where are is your scriptural support showing that he is wrong?"

This is Knotical's response.
Can you honestly say this is not looking for a debate.
Does this sound like a casual statement for the lounge?
Or are you bored and just looking for an argument?
Hey Allen,
I think it's gone beyond casual !!
I like this better than Bible Study.
You could post scripture, or not.
 

reba

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#47
If Calvin needs correction, it should be done in another thread in another forum where it can be debated.
Read the OP again.
You'll see your complaints here are not appropriate.
2.6: A member may not impose additional rules upon threads by claiming on/off topic or by other means. Moderators will enforce only the rules as included in the ToS and are not obligated to enforce regulations promoted by a member. :tongue
 
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#48
If Calvin needs correction, it should be done in another thread in another forum where it can be debated.
Read the OP again.
You'll see your complaints here are not appropriate.
So what do you want I should do?
Agree with the heretic called Calvin and his squad?
No way Jose'.

What complaints?
That he was wrong about everything?
Oh. Is that a complaint.
Sorry.
BTW, he was wrong about everything.
 
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#49
i have a scofield study bible do i accept his notes as truth? some i have some i have not . as per john calvin he was just a man . yes i reject his teaching on salvation . no Doubt God knows who will and when they will be saved or the fact they will not. calvinism as a whole is just like any thing else. something a man studied and got a group of followers yes i reject irresistible Grace the ones God chooses can not reject God.. i believe in Free will God allows us to accept when he calls . it takes a willing heart . i like jay mcgee he is a calvinist . but nothing like piper or MacArthur both good men of God . i try my best to get it of my own.... my belief is based upon study
Do you have any opinions here since this thread is based on opinions?
 
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#50
ME TOO ... To me the term "straw man" is thrown about when some one makes a point contrary to what the other guys wants to hear.....
Sounds good to me !
And I do plenty of that when speaking about this particular subject.
 
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#51
2.6: A member may not impose additional rules upon threads by claiming on/off topic or by other means. Moderators will enforce only the rules as included in the ToS and are not obligated to enforce regulations promoted by a member. :tongue
The thread is about people's opinions.
Is it too much to ask they at least state what they say as their opinion rather than slam down everyone's throat what they believe is the absolute truth?
 
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#53
i have done lots f posting in carm with the calv armn section... it gets rather intense at times... i have STUDIED OUT CALVINISM ..they have some good points some i dont agree with p.o.s is those who are truly saved will stay with it...i lean that direction but not in a full agreement . i also lean toward the eternal security doctrine but not in full agreement with the southern baptist teaching either.. i have my own belief from studying the scriptures . Church of Christ feel they are the true Church the apostolic feel same way ..no name tags in heaven either are or are not this imo
now if you could just spell out what you are saying, it would be nice
not everyone speaks your dialect
 
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#54
The thread is about people's opinions.
Is it too much to ask they at least state what they say as their opinion rather than slam down everyone's throat what they believe is the absolute truth?
I don't think I have an opinion.
I think that what I believe IS the truth --- otherwise why would I believe it??
Everything that comes out of my mouth I believe to be the truth, UNLESS I state it's an opinion.

Calvinism is not an opinion. You either believe it or you don't.
I don't.
I think it's as heretical as can be for the reasons I've stated many times.
I don't THINK he's a heretic, I KNOW he's a heretic.

A heretic is any person or belief system which strays from the accepted beliefs of a religious system. HE is the only one who came up with this theology. He must have had a nightmare one night and decided to spread it around. (that's an opinion). (about the nightmare, I mean).
 
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#55
Do you not believe your opinions are truth?
My OP is in good humor.
Try reading it again.
People are ignoring my good humor and making this a serious all out win or lose debate.
Why is it so important to intrude on my Lounge thread and make a war out of it?
 
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#56
My OP is in good humor.
Try reading it again.
People are ignoring my good humor and making this a serious all out win or lose debate.
Why is it so important to intrude on my Lounge thread and make a war out of it?
Well ---
If you wanted a leisurely discussion you sure did pick the wrong subject !!
People being sent to hell through no fault of their own IS NOT in good humor.
It's rather serious.

It's not a war either. We're just talking here.
We all love and respect each other. But we could still disagree.
A sure sign of love...disagreeing and still liking the person.
 

reba

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#57
My OP is in good humor.
Try reading it again.
People are ignoring my good humor and making this a serious all out win or lose debate.
Why is it so important to intrude on my Lounge thread and make a war out of it?
So what is your honest opinion of Calvinism
 

reba

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#58
Well ---
If you wanted a leisurely discussion you sure did pick the wrong subject !!
People being sent to hell through no fault of their own IS NOT in good humor.
It's rather serious.

It's not a war either. We're just talking here.
We all love and respect each other. But we could still disagree.
A sure sign of love...disagreeing and still liking the person.
He has been here long enough , he fully understands the topic and how it would play out ... Allen is no dummy
 
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#59
You know, opinions are great and all, but when it comes to biblical doctrine opinion is meaningless when it comes to being backed up by scripture. Yes, I realize this is not a debate forum, however, when you make assertions about the bible you still need to back it up. Calvin made assertions after years of study, and wrote books about them. Ok, so some people don't "agree" with him on his assertions, but where is your biblical support to refute his claims? He did his due diligence, where is yours?
I don't need it.
This thread is not a Bible study, or theology, or apologetics, or Sunday School, or evangelism, or a sermon, or missionary work.
This is a discussion on people's opinions in a casual manner.
I thought CF.net provided an area for this type of discussion.
 
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#60

Arminiam didn't agree with it. As also others did not.

Arminianism is based on theological ideas of the Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560–1609) and his historic supporters known as Remonstrants. His teachings held to the five solae of the Reformation, but they were distinct from particular teachings of Martin Luther, Huldrych Zwingli, John Calvin, and other Protestant Reformers. Jacobus Arminius (Jakob Harmenszoon) was a student of Theodore Beza (Calvin's successor) at the Theological University of Geneva. Arminianism is known to some as a soteriological diversification of Protestant Calvinist Christianity.[1] However, to others, Arminianism is a reclamation of early Church theological consensus.[2]

Dutch Arminianism was originally articulated in the Remonstrance (1610), a theological statement signed by 45 ministers and submitted to the States General of the Netherlands. The Synod of Dort (1618–19) was called by the States General to consider the Five Articles of Remonstrance. These articles asserted that



    • Salvation (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the graciously-enabled faith (or unbelief) of man;
    • The Atonement is qualitatively adequate for all men, "yet that no one actually enjoys [experiences] this forgiveness of sins, except the believer ..." and thus is limited to only those who trust in Christ;
    • "That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will," and unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God's will;
    • The (Christian) Grace "of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of any good," yet man may resist the Holy Spirit; and
    • Believers are able to resist sin through Grace, and Christ will keep them from falling; but whether they are beyond the possibility of ultimately forsaking God or "becoming devoid of grace ... must be more particularly determined from the Scriptures."
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism


As I highlighted above, I believe, and know for sure, that arminianism is a reclamation of past early church doctrine. No theologian believed what Calvin taught: Double Predestination.
The early church protected itself from false doctrine.



Good is good. We need a definition? Man that is unsaved is able to do good because he is NOT totally depraved. What are we, puppets that God "uses" us? Of course God could use anyone as He will, He is sovereign. But does this mean He uses each and everyone of us in this way? No. Because we have free will. Do you not believe we have free will? This is what the N.T. teaches. Was Jesus not fully human? He said "not MY WILL, but Yours be done" when He was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane.
I don't know about common grace. Grace is love. If God is Grace, why would He arbitrarily send anyone to hell? Does He shower us with Grace AND Hate to those He deems should be lost?



I don't know what a straw man is. I just speak and say what's on my mind.
All of christianity has a problem reconciling man's free will to God's sovereignty.
I have come to my understanding of this, which I'd be happy to share if you wish.

However, how does a calvinist believe in man's free will, if the most important thing in his entire life (salvation) is NOT up to his free will to choose??

You say above that Jesus died for all who would be saved.
No. Jesus died for the whole world. It's up to each of us to CHOOSE to be saved.
1 John 2:2

Paul also says in Romans 5:8 that God demonstrated His love for us, that while we were still sinners, He died for us.
Who was Paul speaking to in Romans? Everyone, or just those few who would be saved??
Arminus,didn't believe that God foreknew,that God could be surprised by our choices.
God saves persons despite the fact they don't want to be saved?
So we have no free will?
Or we have limited free will...what's that? I could so what I want as long as God agrees with it?
Since he's omnipotent, I doubt I would get my way!
As far as someone changing and wasting time on them...sure, you can say this because you don't believe in free will. I do, so this is not a problem for me.

As to sin... So I just sinned and sinned before salvation because I didn't know God??
Not so. Not for me anyway. I was always a lilttle angel....:halo

You wanna talk sanctification. GO!
limited free will. I cant nor does even your position say that we can do whatever we want without God allowing it. if God decides I'm going to sin and in the process of murdering the other , he or she dies, that it is God who didn't stop that. and at times a cop, accident, prevents that act. commonly called providence.
 
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