Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28

[FreeGrace]

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2a

Yes from Him.

Him is Christ.
The people are in Him.
They are taken away, and are no longer in Him.

Those who do not remain "in Him" are gathered up and cast into the fire and are burned.
JLB

What is obviously not understood is that your "interpretation" of that passage renders other statements of Jesus as being untrue.

Basing theology and doctrine on metaphors and parables isn't the way to understand Scripture. When Jesus said that those He gives eternal life will never perish, He wasn't speaking in metaphors or parables. He was speaking clearly.

The reason Jesus spoke in parables and metaphors was for the benefit of those "who hear but don't understand".
Luke 8:9-10
His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

Even His own disciples didn't understand them.

Trying to base one's theology on parables is a slippery slope for sure.

 

[FreeGrace]

dirtfarmer here

The parable of the vineyard speaks of Israel, not the Church, the body of Christ. Isaiah 5:1-4. How is it possible to connect the believer to the parable of vineyard? Believers since the crucifixion of Christ are part of his body and his espoused bride, not part of his earthly kingdom.

The branches that are "cut off " and cast in the fire, are still useful. They were used to warm in the winter and for cooking purposes.

Great point!! Thanks!

 

[FreeGrace]

Edward's one of the smartest dudes around here.

What's dumb is thinking a dead, cut off branch still has the life of the vine in it.

My opinion, in contrast to yours, is that Jesus was very clear about the FACT that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

So the issue of who WILL NEVER PERISH rests solely on the work of Jesus, both in paying the sin penalty that WE owe, and giving His free gift of eternal life to those who believe in Him.

Your view depends solely on your own efforts to stay saved, through continuing to believe and lifestyle.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But it seems some do have a problem wanting to communicate their views.

If there is reluctance in giving an answer, just say so, and I'll move on.

Even though we can't share our discernment of people posting here, every time you say no one has posted anything, instead of saying what got posted doesn't say what we teach (so you say), you tilt your cards and expose who you really are. It's a dishonest, ungodly provocation designed to stir us to anger and frustration. And it's plain to us that you have to do that because you're argument gets so soundly defeated time and time again.

John gives us plain instruction on how to discern those who teach. It's obvious to me by your behavior what I am to consider you as. Very obvious.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your view depends solely on your own efforts to stay saved, through continuing to believe and lifestyle.

Time to pony up.
Post the verse or passage that says trusting in Christ is a work of the damnable works gospel.
Do that and I'll concede the debate and go home.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Please address the aorist tense use of "believe" and explain how one MUST continually believe in order to continually be saved, given both Paul's and Jesus' use of the aorist tense."

Who here is arguing that non-OSAS means you aren't saved the moment you believe????
Obviously, for a person to lose their salvation they had to have had it in the first place--when they first believed.

The non-osas view argues that one must continually believe in order to continually be saved. But Jesus said that those He gives eternal life to (meaning those who believe the moment they believe), WILL NEVER PERISH.

So the claim that one must continually believe is refuted by what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Non-OSAS says you ARE PRESENTLY SAVED if you are presently believing. It does not say you are not saved when you first believed.

The problem is that the aorist tense says that one is saved for having believed in a point in time. Which non-osas doesn't address.

Jesus and Paul used the present tense when speaking of salvation. And that is the exact truth that you discard.

They also spoke in the aorist tense. One is saved because of a point in time belief. Which is discarded by non-osas.

You're not rightly dividing the word of God (again) when you only talk about the aorist tense of believing but ignore the present tense of believing for salvation that the scriptures use.

Non-osas is an abuse of the present tense. It doesn't mean continually believe for the rest of one's life, which is how non-osas uses it.

Please read this explanation of the present tense:
"For action happening at the present time, only the 'present tense' is available. Whether the writer is wishing in any particular instance to emphasis the progressive aspect of the verb or just indicate a simple occurrence at the present time, there is only one choice of tense to use. Therefore, one must consider the context and the basic meaning of the verb to determine whether the emphasis is on the continuous aspect of the action or merely on the present time element. It may be that no real emphasis on progressive action is intended but, for a statement requiring the element of present time, there is no choice but to use the 'present tense'. (Of course outside the indicative mood the emphasis almost certainly will be on the progressive element of the verb, since the aorist tense could readily be employed)."

Source: http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm

Example:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved (present tense), if you hold fast (present tense) the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold, underline and parenthesis mine)

Your example fails because the 2 English words "hold fast" means "possess", not "to grip tightly for as long as you live".

Jesus taught that those who have believed HAVE eternal life. They are given it when they believe (point in time) John 5:24. And He also said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. That is eternal security. Plain.as.day.

 

[FreeGrace]

Even though we can't share our discernment of people posting here, every time you say no one has posted anything, instead of saying what got posted doesn't say what we teach (so you say), you tilt your cards and expose who you really are. It's a dishonest, ungodly provocation designed to stir us to anger and frustration. And it's plain to us that you have to do that because you're argument gets so soundly defeated time and time again.

I have PROVEN that your "interpretations" of the verses supplied by non-osas cannot mean what is being claimed, or else they contradict other WAY MORE clear verses that teach eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Your view depends solely on your own efforts to stay saved, through continuing to believe and lifestyle."

Time to pony up.
Post the verse or passage that says trusting in Christ is a work of the damnable works gospel.

This request doesn't seem in any way related to my comment, which was about your abuse of the present tense.

I've NEVER ever said anything close to what your request insinuates.

What is a works gospel is claiming that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. To continue to believe depends on you, not Christ.

John 10:28 is a powerful statement refuting your claims. It is to those given eternal life by Jesus who WILL NEVER PERISH.

It doesn't depend on anything you do after receiving the gift. In contrat to your claims.

Do that and I'll concede the debate and go home.

The request was bogus, since I've never suggested such.

 

[JLB]

What is obviously not understood is that your "interpretation" of that passage renders other statements of Jesus as being untrue.

Basing theology and doctrine on metaphors and parables isn't the way to understand Scripture.

It seems this is an effort is to just "cloud" these words in obscurity, as if we simply can't know what Jesus meant.

Here are the verse's again, for all to see and evaluate.

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

• Jesus is the Vine that supports the branches.
• God the Father is the vinedresser.
• The branches refer to people.
• The branches [the people] who are "in Him", are connected to the eternal Life that He Himself is.
• The branches [the people who are connected in Him] that are removed or taken away from Him, wither.
• The branches [the people who are connected in Him] that are disconnected or taken away from Him, are no longer supported from the Life that only comes from Him.
• The branches [the people who are connected in Him] that have become disconnected from Him, and are withered, are gathered up and thrown into the fire and are burned.

Luke 8:9-10
His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

Even His own disciples didn't understand them.

The parables were given because of those who "were outside".

And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, Mark 4:11

Jesus explained the parable to them, and asked them if they understood.

And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? Mark 4:13


This was done before they had received the Holy Spirit, and had Jesus personally teaching them.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The error here is to assume that one must continually believe in order to continually be saved. Yet the aorist tense refutes such a notion.

Yet another post with no scripture.

I have asked you to provide the scriptures which teach us that a person who doesn't believe any longer is saved.

When asked if a person who no longer believes, still believes, you answered No.


11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

and again

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

and again

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

The point is, the cut off branches do not have the life of the vine in them.
A branch can't be disconnected from the vine and still have the life of the vine in it as hyper-grace OSAS is trying to insist. At least traditional OSAS has believing as the continuing requirement for salvation. That argument I can respect. But I have zero respect for an argument that says a dead, cut off branch is still 'really' still alive.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

Is the believer in Christ that die, still part of the body of Christ or are they castaways? The parable of the vine is about Israel and in the future Israel will again become God's earthly people. It is during that time that people have to "endure unto the end" in order to be saved. The "Church" has already resurrected in Christ. The believer has been saved from the penalty of sin, in which they have already been made fellow-citizens and fellow-heirs with Christ. The believer also has been saved from the power of sin, in that sin no longer reigns.
Romans 6:14 " For sin shall not have dominion over you: For ye are not under the law". 1 Corinthians 15:56 " The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."
Romans 8:2 " For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, hath made me free for the of sin and death."

Who is it that has the power of resurrection? is it not Jesus Christ.
Romans 6:6 " Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth, we should not serve sin." Do you really believe that Jesus will really resurrect the body of sin? Or will permit "the dead in him" to leave.
1 Corinthians 6:20 " For ye are bough with a price: therefore glorify God in your body and your spirit, which are God's." Are we able or even have the resources to reimburse God for our salvation?

Why does any one think that God will take back the gift of eternal life, once he has given it? How is it possible for us, man, to remove ourselves from Jesus? In John 10:28 it is stated; " Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Are you man? Then you would be included in" any man".

! Corinthians 15 believing in vain are those that don't believe in the resurrection of the dead: verse 12-14, and verse 17 states specifically: " And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; and ye are yet in your sins."

What is the only thing that condemns a person? Scripture says that it is unbelief in what God has accomplished through Christ on the cross. It is not feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, nor healing the sick; those are earthly kingdom tributes that will happen during the time that Christ rules from the throne of David in Jerusalem.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So the claim that one must continually believe is refuted by what Jesus said in John 10:28.

John 10:28 NASB only means you can stop believing and you still have eternal life when you isolate it away from the rest of everything else the Bible says about eternal life. That's so easy to understand it amazes me that people can be so easily led astray into this damnable doctrine of hyper/free grace. The main problem being, most Christians simply don't know enough of the Bible to now the rest of the story about eternal life. Because of that the church is ripe for doctrines of false teachers who teach that grace is a license to deny the Lord in unbelief and to return to your old life of unrepentant sin as a result of that unbelief:

"I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:3-4 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I said this:
"Your view depends solely on your own efforts to stay saved, through continuing to believe and lifestyle."

Yes, freegrace, you did say that. And this:

What is a works gospel is claiming that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. To continue to believe depends on you, not Christ.

Now give us the scripture that says continuing to trust in Christ is one's own effort to stay saved and is a work of the damnable works gospel, the gospel of self-righteousness.

Like I said, show me that verse or passage and I will concede the debate and go home--instantly and without hesitation. And I will make sure to publicly concede the debate.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have PROVEN that your "interpretations" of the verses supplied by non-osas cannot mean what is being claimed, or else they contradict other WAY MORE clear verses that teach eternal security.

I showed you they do not. And I showed you that your interpretation is actually what causes the specific non-OSAS passages to be contradictory to John 10:28 NASB and other (supposedly) OSAS passages.

"28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish" (John 10:28 NASB)

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

To interpret the John passage as you do directly contradicts the plain words of the 1 Corinthians passage.
But the reverse is not true: Interpreting 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB for what it plainly says--that you have to be presently believing in order to be presently save--does not contradict John 10:28 NASB. Even traditional OSAS knows this! At least traditional OSAS understands that you have to continue to believe in order to be saved. That's why I can respect their argument, while I have complete and utter disdain and contempt for free grace doctrine that makes the grace of God in salvation a license to sin in unbelief. That is a complete joke.

 

[Edward]

John 10:28 NASB only means you can stop believing and you still have eternal life when you isolate it away from the rest of everything else the Bible says about eternal life. That's so easy to understand it amazes me that people can be so easily led astray into this damnable doctrine of hyper/free grace. The main problem being, most Christians simply don't know enough of the Bible to now the rest of the story about eternal life. Because of that the church is ripe for doctrines of false teachers who teach that grace is a license to deny the Lord in unbelief and to return to your old life of unrepentant sin as a result of that unbelief:

"I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:3-4 NASB)

Well said, Brother. It has to agree with all of scripture, and a notion of OSAS does not agree with the all of scripture considering all of the warnings that are in scripture. Many things are repeated even. Like you, it is absolutely astounding to me that this particular topic is debated so vehemently! I'm not even sure what the underlying point is, in OSAS? That one can get saved and from then on has no duties or obligations to obey? You've effectively debunked OSAS but there's still so much division about it that it blows my mind.

I guess I could add Titus 2:7 to the mix to be considered.

/7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,.../

Now it does not say, until one has been born again or anything of the sort. It says, in all things...this (to me) would have more application after one is born again. And in no way does this suggest a works based salvation. Salvation is grace through faith, in our Lord Jesus the Christ. Period. But after one is born again, we're expected to shine that very light to the world. Many times, this is done though good works of ours. If one has no charity (isn't walking in love), then they're not obeying Jesus's commands. If we love Him we will keep His commands. We will obey. There's no getting out of it having to obey.

I have their premise right, don't I? Not under the law so do not have to have any good works and it doesn't matter because I'm already saved? You OSAS crowd, set me straight on that if I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, then what is the premise? why do you want me to believe in OSAS? What's the point of OSAS?

 

[JLB]

in OSAS? That one can get saved and from then on has no duties or obligations to obey? You've effectively debunked OSAS but there's still so much division about it that it blows my mind.

Well said.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The error here is to assume that one must continually believe in order to continually be saved. Yet the aorist tense refutes such a notion."

Yet another post with no scripture.

Check out Rom 10:9, Acts 16:31 and Luke 8:12.

I have asked you to provide the scriptures which teach us that a person who doesn't believe any longer is saved.

When asked if a person who no longer believes, still believes, you answered No.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

Where did Jesus say anything about loss of salvation here? I'm not seeing any such words.

All I've seen is the repeated opinion that those who believe for a while are saved for a while. Without any Scripture to back it up.

But we know from Jesus' teaching that those who have believed possess (HAVE) eternal life WHEN they believe (John 5:24) and He also taught that those He gives eternal life (those who have believed) WILL NEVER PERISH.

Since your view disagrees with what Jesus taught in John 10:28, please explain what Jesus was teaching in John 10:28.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

The condition is: if you continue in the faith.

So, what is the outcome if the condition is met? Is it salvation? No, it is not.

The outcome is: "and you...now He has reconciled...to present you holy, and blameless and above reproach in His sight".

Nothing about salvation here. It's about our lifestyle; being holy, blameless and above reproach.

It should be obvious that ONLY IF a believer DOES continue in the faith will God be able "to present you holy, and blameless and above reproach".

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2
JLB

Again, to "hold fast" means in the Greek "to possess", not to "grip tightly for the rest of your life".

And once a person believes in Christ, they HAVE (possess) eternal life, which is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and is therefore, as a gift of God, irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Eternal life is taught clearly throughout Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

John 10:28 NASB only means you can stop believing and you still have eternal life when you isolate it away from the rest of everything else the Bible says about eternal life.

This claim is just an opinion, and without any evidence from Scripture. What Jesus said was a statement of FACT, and isn't modified in any way by any other verse.

For sure, v.27 DOES NOT MEAN or even suggest that only those believers who follow Him to the end of their lives WILL NEVER PERISH.

If Jesus meant that, He would have clearly said so. But no honest scholar can claim that v.27 is the condition for NEVER PERISHING.

That is based solely on receiving eternal life, as v.28 clearly SAYS.

 

[JLB]

Again, to "hold fast" means in the Greek "to possess", not to "grip tightly for the rest of your life".

Yes those who continue to possess the word by which they were saved, are those who will be saved.


Those who believed the word and were saved, but today no longer possess that word, are those who believed in vain, because they no longer possess the word today.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2


JLB

 

[JLB]

I've already shared the Greek word meaning for "in vain". It means "without reason" and has therefore, nothing to do with "no longer believing", as being insinuated.

Believing in vain refers to their initial believing being rendered "worthless" by reason of them not continuing to possess the word, as present tense believing.


JLB