Is A New Moon A Sign of the Rapture?

[Jim Parker]

Are you stating Jesus's parables are to vague for "us" to understand?That He is vague.

What I said was (quoting Jesus) the Jesus, in fact, repeated did speak in vague terms called "parables."
And I also stated that, even though the Holy Spirit has been sent to the Church, even up to this day, believers who have received the Holy Spirit do not agree as to the meaning of everything Jesus said.
For example:
Luk 22:19-20 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you."
Some believers take Jesus words in that passage to be literal (the bread is, in fact His body and the wine is, in fact His blood) while others take it as symbolic. (The bread is a "symbol" of His body and the wine is a "symbol" of His blood.)

Likewise, the same two groups divide over the interpretation of John 6:48-58 as being literal or symbolic.

Both views are held by believers who have been given the Holy Spirit.

So, yes, aspparently there is some vagueness in what Jesus said.

iakov the fool

 

[Randy]

What I said was (quoting Jesus) the Jesus, in fact, repeated did speak in vague terms called "parables."
And I also stated that, even though the Holy Spirit has been sent to the Church, even up to this day, believers who have received the Holy Spirit do not agree as to the meaning of everything Jesus said.
For example:
Luk 22:19-20 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you."
Some believers take Jesus words in that passage to be literal (the bread is, in fact His body and the wine is, in fact His blood) while others take it as symbolic. (The bread is a "symbol" of His body and the wine is a "symbol" of His blood.)

Likewise, the same two groups divide over the interpretation of John 6:48-58 as being literal or symbolic.

Both views are held by believers who have been given the Holy Spirit.

So, yes, aspparently there is some vagueness in what Jesus said.

iakov the fool

John 6:48:-58 is clearly a metaphor. We are one with Him by the Spirit of Christ in us.
Does Jesus eat the Fathers flesh or drink the Fathers blood as if the Father had blood to drink?
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Pentecost - On that day you will have a common frame of reference to understand
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

 

[Randy]

As I stated before we wondered Rev 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken. The date and time is not for us to know but we can know the signs given. The beast reign is 42 months and that beast is destroyed by Jesus's return. The mount of olives being split is two, as fortold in Zech 14, to make a ways of escape from the surrounding armies is also another good sign that can be mistaken. For in those days the Lords return is imminent. "Those" invading armies are destroyed by the Lord not mankind.

The lord will come suddenly and with great surprise to those who have not believed and refused to repent of their evil ways so as to be ensnared by the lies of the false prophet. For God allowed such judgment to fall on them who refuse His last correction -1260 days of testimony and the two caught up to heaven in full view of the whole world. There will be no more delay.

The bowl judgments are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. And are the last of Gods judgments for with their completion Gods wrath is complete.
The Lords comes and reigns at the end.
Rev 16:15

 

[Jim Parker]

John 6:48:-58 is clearly a metaphor.

Really?
Martin Luther did not think so.
But you can draw whatever conclusion you like.

 

[Randy]

Really?
Martin Luther did not think so.
But you can draw whatever conclusion you like.

Marty wasn't perfect.
Yes, I think we all make judgments.
With the women at the well it was living water not bread.

Randy

 

[Jim Parker]

Marty wasn't perfect.
Yes, I think we all make judgments.
With the women at the well it was living water not bread.

Randy

The teaching of the very early church was universally that the bread was really His body and the wine was really His blood.
That remained the teaching of the entire Church until the reformer, Zwingli.

 

[Randy]

The teaching of the very early church was universally that the bread was really His body and the wine was really His blood.
That remained the teaching of the entire Church until the reformer, Zwingli.

I would state they were mistaken.
Rather I think its the Spirit of Christ in me who Jesus sends from heaven as in being One with Jesus. Nothing else is needed.
Jesus refers to Himself as manna from heaven or asking for living water or a gatekeeper into the Kingdom of God.
They are metaphors for Him being the one God sent who can give life and in Him alone is found eternal life.
Do you think Jesus is bread from heaven or a living being?
When Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty

 

[Jim Parker]

I would state they were mistaken.

Based on what?
Seriously, I would like to know the basis of your rejection of what the Church has taught from day one.

Rather I think its the Spirit of Christ in me who Jesus sends from heaven as in being One with Jesus. Nothing else is needed.

That's not what Jesus said.
Jesus said:
Jhn 6:48-51 “I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

and

Jhn 6:53-58 “Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
Of course, you are free to accept that passage at face value or as some kind of metaphor.
However, the entire Church, from the beginning, taught that the bread was the body of Christ and the wine was the blood of Christ.

For example:

Ignatius of Antioch (30-107 A. D. A disciple of the apostle John and Bishop of Antioch) in his Epistle to the Smyrnaens, Ch. VII: “Let Us Stand Aloof from Such Heretics” states; “They (the heretics) abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins,..”

Ignatius was taught by the John, the beloved disciple of Christ and, in this statement, he affirms the teaching of the apostles and Christ that the bread is Christ’s body.

Justin Martyr, the church’s first apologist, wrote in the first half of the 2nd century in his “The First Apology of Justin”, in Chapter LXVI.—Of the Eucharist. In it he reports what he was taught as a new Christian by the church. That would mean that the teaching he received was already established in the church. It is part of the teaching of the apostles who taught what they learned from Jesus. It is God’s inspired teaching to the church by His Son, through the apostles to the church.

“And this food is called among us Eujcaristiva [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; ”and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood; ”and gave it to them alone.”

 

[ezra]

The teaching of the very early church was universally that the bread was really His body and the wine was really His blood.
That remained the teaching of the entire Church until the reformer, Zwingli.

i fail to understand how any could come to the conclusion that the elements of the Lord supper is Christ Body. luther had some great works but some of his ideas i can not go along with when i say body i mean his physical body

 

[ezra]

for me partaking of the Lord supper is sacred and symbolic /spiritual i do not believe in closed communion .i so not find it in the Bible .thoughts?

 

[Jim Parker]

i fail to understand how any could come to the conclusion that the elements of the Lord supper is Christ Body.

UH....because Jesus said they were?

 

[ezra]

UH....because Jesus said they were?

uh ?? so we are literally eating Jesus and drinking his real blood? uh i understand scripture .let me phrase it this way maybe i wont get the UH when were Born again are we physically re born? i realize i dont have a masters degree uh the communion wafers the juice represents his broken body and his shed blood at Calvary . i respect your studies and degrees . i do know how to read and understand scripture . i would appreciate the same respect back not a teenager roll your eyes uh the partaking of communion is a spiritual transformation
John 3:6

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

1 Corinthians 2:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

hope this helps

 

[Randy]

Based on what?
Seriously, I would like to know the basis of your rejection of what the Church has taught from day one.

That's not what Jesus said.
Jesus said:
Jhn 6:48-51 “I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

and

Jhn 6:53-58 “Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
Of course, you are free to accept that passage at face value or as some kind of metaphor.
However, the entire Church, from the beginning, taught that the bread was the body of Christ and the wine was the blood of Christ.

For example:

Ignatius of Antioch (30-107 A. D. A disciple of the apostle John and Bishop of Antioch) in his Epistle to the Smyrnaens, Ch. VII: “Let Us Stand Aloof from Such Heretics” states; “They (the heretics) abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins,..”

Ignatius was taught by the John, the beloved disciple of Christ and, in this statement, he affirms the teaching of the apostles and Christ that the bread is Christ’s body.

Justin Martyr, the church’s first apologist, wrote in the first half of the 2nd century in his “The First Apology of Justin”, in Chapter LXVI.—Of the Eucharist. In it he reports what he was taught as a new Christian by the church. That would mean that the teaching he received was already established in the church. It is part of the teaching of the apostles who taught what they learned from Jesus. It is God’s inspired teaching to the church by His Son, through the apostles to the church.

“And this food is called among us Eujcaristiva [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; ”and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood; ”and gave it to them alone.”

I don't know Justin. I do know Jesus.
Based on what? "Faith"
As in sanctified by faith in Him.
...But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The Fathers promise who Jesus sent to us from heaven. Christ in us.

Their are some other religions that dont believe a Holy God cold occupy man. I would state I believe anything God touches and where His Spirit dwells becomes Holy.
When Moses was drawn to the burning bust that wasn't consumed by the flames.
take off your shoes for the ground you are standing on is holy

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because ofg your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

It clear to me Jesus used many metaphors.
Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

11“Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”

13Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

In different ways. Jesus stated He was sent from God. And He alone has the authority to give life. Apart from Him there is no resurrection.

 

[ezra]

Communion is sacred and should be under the anointing when served . not some carnal going through the motion service. as oft as you do this do it in remembrance of me . the elements of the bread and wine are not Christ physical body . that has been my point .i was raised in the Methodist church there was several times a year we did Communion. i went to the altar that is how they served it . i was lost living a life for the devil. not once was it mentioned as a lost person . you should not partake of the Lord Supper

13Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

and had they drank the physical water they would be thirsty . but drink the Living water Christ offers and we will never thirst again

 

[Jim Parker]

I don't know Justin.

You can know Justin and the teaching of the church if you are willing to put in the effort.
Or you can remain without any knowledge of the original church.
Your choice.

 

[ezra]

UH....because Jesus said they were?

you missed my point but yet failed to reply to my comments . you have the education of Bible history so how about you enlighten us. i have no resources of all this . no body is denying what Christ said .my part it is not the physical body but please no ughhh as i never replied to you in that manner

 

[Randy]

You can know Justin and the teaching of the church if you are willing to put in the effort.
Or you can remain without any knowledge of the original church.
Your choice.

Yet, I am far from alone in regard to the bread and wine.
My effort was put in coming to know Jesus. He is my Rabbi. He is my source of life. The Pope's through the years may make judgments. I also, as one who is known by Jesus, make judgments.

 

[ezra]

You can know Justin and the teaching of the church if you are willing to put in the effort.
Or you can remain without any knowledge of the original church.
Your choice.

so why cant you share more on this ? i have asked numerous times and no reply, i have given my explanation . so in what way does the Eucharist become the Body of Christ ? that is what i am asking you being a professor i would hope you could explain

 

[Jim Parker]

Yet, I am far from alone in regard to the bread and wine.

Which means absolutely nothing.
You would be far from alone as a Muslim or a Hindu.

My effort was put in coming to know Jesus. He is my Rabbi. He is my source of life.

Also has nothing to do with the historic faith of the Church.

The Pope's through the years may make judgments.

I didn't say anything about popes. I didn't quote any popes. I don't know why you even mentioned popes.

I also, as one who is known by Jesus, make judgments.

Jesus knows everyone. (Even those popes you brought up.)

What the Church receives from the apostles who were taught by God incarnate is available to you for free on line. IF you don't want to know what has been the teaching of the apostles from the beginning of the Church, that is your choice. You don't have to justify your choice to me.

 

[Jim Parker]

so why cant you share more on this ? i have asked numerous times and no reply, i have given my explanation . so in what way does the Eucharist become the Body of Christ ? that is what i am asking you being a professor i would hope you could explain

OK, I'll post it again.
This is the clearest report of the very early church of which I am aware.

Justin Martyr, the church’s first apologist, wrote in the first half of the 2nd century in his “The First Apology of Justin”, in Chapter LXVI.—Of the Eucharist.

In this chapter, he reports what he was taught as a new Christian by the church.

That would mean that the teaching he received was already established in the church and was part of the teaching of the apostles who taught what they learned from Jesus.

It is God’s inspired teaching to the church by His Son, through the apostles to the church.

“And this food is called among us Eucaristiva [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed (baptized) with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these;
but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation,

so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; ”and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone.”

Also,

Ignatius of Antioch (30-107 A. D. A disciple of the apostle John and Bishop of Antioch) in his Epistle to the Smyrnaens, Ch. VII: “Let Us Stand Aloof from Such Heretics” states;
“They (the heretics) abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins,..”

Ignatius was taught by the Apostle John, the beloved disciple of Christ.
In this statement, he affirms the teaching of the apostles and Christ that the bread is Christ’s body.

Notice that those who did not confess the bread to be the Body of Christ were heretics.

So, how does the bread and wine become the body and blood of the Lord?
Jesus didn't say.
Just like He didn't day how He raised Lazarus from the dead or how He gave sight to the man born blind or how all of creation was created through Him.
It is a mystery.
Apparently, we don't need to know HOW he does the things He does. Not our business, I suppose.

So there you have it.
Ignatius was a contemporary of John and his disciple.
Justin was in the next generation of believers who were taught by the disciples of the apostles.
They emphatically and clearly state that the bread and wine of the Eucharist become the body and blood of Christ.

You can believe them or you can believe the people who came along 1500 years later and decided to "reform" Christianity.

I'm sticking with the original teaching of the Church.

But, here's something to contemplate:
Jesus said:
Jhn 6:48-51 “I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

and

Jhn 6:53-58 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

So, if we are to understand Jesus' meaning as being symbolic then are we to also understand eternal life as being symbolic?

Should I consider this to be totally symbolic? "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Individual mileage will vary.