Is Baptism an Ordinance or Command?

[joseph lentz]

I am not sure if this goes here or in the Theology Forum.

Romans 10:9,10 "If thou shalt confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus,and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead,thou shalt be saved.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter saith unto them,"Repent,and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost."

Phillip baptized the man from Ethiopia Acts 8:36-38

Yet the thief on the cross was not baptized Luke 23:43

I get confused when this subject is brought up in Sunday School.

 

[Nathan]

I am not sure if this goes here or in the Theology Forum.

Romans 10:9,10 "If thou shalt confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus,and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead,thou shalt be saved.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter saith unto them,"Repent,and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost."

Phillip baptized the man from Ethiopia Acts 8:36-38

Yet the thief on the cross was not baptized Luke 23:43

I get confused when this subject is brought up in Sunday School.

The confusion is not uncommon. I assure you of that. I was confused about it for a long time and it became the turning point in my life when I realized that when we honestly seek God's truth, He will give it.

You may or may not want to hear this, but in order to understand it you have to get into the original language. The word for baptizing has two meanings. They both have to do with making pickles. yum

One meaning is to dunk the cucumber into a water mixture and then remove it(cleaning it/shocking it). The other meaning is to dunk the cucumber into the mixture and leave it(making it a pickle/transforming it).

When Jesus and the disciples talk about being baptized into a "name", they are talking about being made a pickle. When they talk about being baptized in water, they are talking about just cleaning it. See the difference? If they meant to make a pickle with someone in the water - that would be bad. And, just cleaning someone in the name of Jesus - has no lasting effect - it does not change the person.

We want to become Jesus pickles. So, to be baptized into the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit - means to be fully transformed by God's power by being fully understanding of who God is. That - being made a pickle - is definitely essential to 'becoming' a Christian. Think about it, just dunking a cucumber into a bottle of vinegar and then eating it is not the same as a cucumber, that has been made a pickle by the immersion of the cucumber, and the transforming power of the vinegar.

The same is true with us. We cannot be 'made' into a Christian by dunking our bodies in physical water. But we can by being immersed into Christ, and being transformed by His power.

To answer your question, baptism in water - good ordinance to do, which shows the transformation taking place Spiritually.

Baptism in the Godhead, absolute necessity in order to fully become a Christian.

 

[joseph lentz]

The confusion is not uncommon. I assure you of that. I was confused about it for a long time and it became the turning point in my life when I realized that when we honestly seek God's truth, He will give it.

You may or may not want to hear this, but in order to understand it you have to get into the original language. The word for baptizing has two meanings. They both have to do with making pickles. yum

One meaning is to dunk the cucumber into a water mixture and then remove it(cleaning it/shocking it). The other meaning is to dunk the cucumber into the mixture and leave it(making it a pickle/transforming it).

When Jesus and the disciples talk about being baptized into a "name", they are talking about being made a pickle. When they talk about being baptized in water, they are talking about just cleaning it. See the difference? If they meant to make a pickle with someone in the water - that would be bad. And, just cleaning someone in the name of Jesus - has no lasting effect - it does not change the person.

We want to become Jesus pickles. So, to be baptized into the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit - means to be fully transformed by God's power by being fully understanding of who God is. That - being made a pickle - is definitely essential to 'becoming' a Christian. Think about it, just dunking a cucumber into a bottle of vinegar and then eating it is not the same as a cucumber, that has been made a pickle by the immersion of the cucumber, and the transforming power of the vinegar.

The same is true with us. We cannot be 'made' into a Christian by dunking our bodies in physical water. But we can by being immersed into Christ, and being transformed by His power.

To answer your question, baptism in water - good ordinance to do, which shows the transformation taking place Spiritually.

Baptism in the Godhead, absolute necessity in order to fully become a Christian.

Thank you so very much Brother!

 

[Nathan]

Thank you so very much Brother!

Your welcome, praise God because if He had not helped me see that one night I would still be questioning it all. I really, really, would suggest you study more on it. It really is an amazing study and has so much depth to it. I just barley scratched the surface for you.

 

[WIP]

I believe it is a necessary step because Jesus requires it. We can read in Matthew 28 where He commanded His disciples to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;" NKJV

We also can see in Matthew where Jesus required it of Himself even when John didn't feel worthy of the task.

Whether water baptism is a requirement for salvation or not may be a topic for debate but to me it doesn't matter because Jesus requires it so I will do it.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Is water baptism accomplished after Spiritual baptism? My understanding of the word "baptize, baptism" is placing into. When I was born from above, I was full engulfed by Jesus Christ. My self died, so the life that I had then was gone and I was completely a new creation and Jesus Christ was my life. As scripture states in Galatians 2:20, " I am now crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

1 Corinthians 12:13, " For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.". I don't see water mentioned any where, only Spirit, and by that Spirit we are placed into the body of Christ.

It is my belief that it is when we believe that Christ die for us, in our place, is when the Spirit "places us in the body of Christ" not sometime later in the water used to baptize by humans.

 

[Edward]

I believe it is a necessary step because Jesus requires it. We can read in Matthew 28 where He commanded His disciples to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;" NKJV

We also can see in Matthew where Jesus required it of Himself even when John didn't feel worthy of the task.

Whether water baptism is a requirement for salvation or not may be a topic for debate but to me it doesn't matter because Jesus requires it so I will do it.

I'm in agreement with that. I also believe that, once is sufficient. Like uh, me for instance, I was saved and water baptised when I was about 14 years old. Then I grew up a little bit more, and got interested in girls, then married at 24, so was effectively backslidden throughout that, which you may as well call it backslidden for 32 years. Then in 2009 me and the Lord got reaquainted again and this time for good...But I don't feel the need to get baptized again, either. I've repented and turned back to Him, this is enough. I was water baptised once and so I'm good on that.

I can't help but feel that there can be exceptions though (for water baptism), remember the thief on the cross? He didn't get baptized and Jesus said that, today he will be in paradise with Him...

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law. Gentiles were not bound under the curse of the law. Direct God's grace and salvation through belief in the one who sent Christ.

Jesus was speaking only to Israel and come only for the Lost sheep of Israel who were bound under the curse of the Law. Israel had to be born again.

 

[joseph lentz]

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law. Gentiles were not bound under the curse of the law. Direct God's grace and salvation through belief in the one who sent Christ.

Jesus was speaking only to Israel and come only for the Lost sheep of Israel who were bound under the curse of the Law. They had to be born again.

Hmmmmm I don't know. That's a new one on me.
But anyway.....should they be baptized?

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Hmmmmm I don't know. That's a new one on me.
But anyway.....should they be baptized?

Jesus was born a Jew thats why he had to btake the born again baptism through John, he was bound under the curse of the Law. Jesus even had to take the born again baptism.

Water baptism, just my opinion, is not for the gentile.

Baptised into Christ through belief in him and the one who sent him is where all are One in Christ.

 

[joseph lentz]

Jesus was born a Jew thats why he had to be born again through John, he was bound under the curse of the Law. Jesus was even born again.

Water baptism, just my opinion, is not for the gentile.

Baptised into Christ through belief in him is where all are One in Christ both Jew and Gentile.

Thank you

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Thank you

Dont take my word for it as i am a man of error, read the 4 books. I think the one problem many dont find is that Jesus come only for the lost sheep of Israel and was only talking to Israel. They read one can not enter the Kingdom unless they are born again and born of water and automatically think that means them.

 

[joseph lentz]

Dont take my word for it as i am a man of error, read the 4 books. I think the one problem many dont find is that Jesus come only for the lost sheep of Israel and was only talking to Israel. They read one can not enter the Kingdom unless they are born again and born of water and automatically think that means them.

Your thought does have a certain ring to it,but I can't say I fully agree ....yet. But I will chew on it.
Thanks again

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

When someone gets baptised they get baptised into Israel and the Law and go into Jesus death and are judged by the Law they were never under and are imprisoned waiting for Christ to come open the gates. In the belly of the whale. Its not nessesary a bad thing but its a bumpy ride.

Baptised into the curse.

Thats why born again Christians do there best to serve, obey, and hold the commandments.

 

[Edward]

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law...

This is exactly correct. Sin could not be imputed unto man before thew Law was given.

Gentiles were not bound under the curse of the law. Direct God's grace and salvation through belief in the one who sent Christ.

Jesus was speaking only to Israel and come only for the Lost sheep of Israel who were bound under the curse of the Law. Israel had to be born again.

I've never heard this, where'd you learn it? scripture, sermon...?
How could the law not apply to Gentiles? Maybe some of those semi-obscure Jewish (customs) laws I can see, but what about the 10 commandments? That's pretty basic, across the board stuff, right? Law for all. We Gentiles have been (or will be at that time period) grafted into the vine, so then it would have to apply I would think...(until one receives the Holy Spirit)

 

[Edward]

I remember hearing something about, if the Jews had not turned their back on God, then the Gentiles would never have had any chance for Redemption or Salvation. But That doesn't mean that the Ten Commandments isn't for everyone...Does it?

That was illustrated in the story where none of the man's friends could come to His wedding, they all crapped out and said they had to go do errands and stuff. So the Master of the house, who was getting married said to the servants, go out into the street and invite strangers in to the wedding. (Symbolising the Gentiles being allowed in.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

This is exactly correct. Sin could not be imputed unto man before thew Law was given.



I've never heard this, where'd you learn it? scripture, sermon...?
How could the law not apply to Gentiles? Maybe some of those semi-obscure Jewish (customs) laws I can see, but what about the 10 commandments? That's pretty basic, across the board stuff, right? Law for all. We Gentiles have been (or will be at that time period) grafted into the vine, so then it would have to apply I would think...(until one receives the Holy Spirit)

Was any promise given to the gentiles?. Obey my Commands and you will enter the pearly gates, that was all based on the knowledge of good and evil because thats all the Law is and Christ was the only one who could fullfill it.

How many other Laws does God have for perfection, Jehova gave Moses like over 200. There is probably a million all up.

Our nations are based on that same false promise from the first establish rule of law from Adams fall. The USA was founded on the 10 and look at where its got the nation. The nation promises prosperity and less crime and a peaceful society if everyone follows there laws. And look, its a complete mess. There is probably more people in prison both mental and literally than the outside. Its all a lie. Its all based on a lie. All nations are the same, all based on a flower system of law. Its the serpants fruit. Its the King of babylon.

Christ come to set the captives free.

The flaw is in the system, the system stops humans from just being human and allowing there natural light to shine.

 

[stovebolts]

I am not sure if this goes here or in the Theology Forum.

Romans 10:9,10 "If thou shalt confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus,and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead,thou shalt be saved.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter saith unto them,"Repent,and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost."

Phillip baptized the man from Ethiopia Acts 8:36-38

Yet the thief on the cross was not baptized Luke 23:43

I get confused when this subject is brought up in Sunday School.

It's pretty simple actually.
If you are a Christian, we are commanded by Jesus to baptize, and then teach. You can read about it in the last chapter of Matthew.

For non-Christians, it's simply a response to the gospel.

Some try to water down baptism as a rite, or an ordinance, but if you read where people were baptized, it's always a response to the gospel.

And what is the foundation of the gospel? It's the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and according to Romans 6, we partake in that through baptism.

In short, baptism isn't a legal exchange, nor is it a simple rite, ritual or ordinance. It's a commitment, much like a marriage where you are made alive in Jesus.

 

[stovebolts]

This is exactly correct. Sin could not be imputed unto man before thew Law was given.



I've never heard this, where'd you learn it? scripture, sermon...?
How could the law not apply to Gentiles? Maybe some of those semi-obscure Jewish (customs) laws I can see, but what about the 10 commandments? That's pretty basic, across the board stuff, right? Law for all. We Gentiles have been (or will be at that time period) grafted into the vine, so then it would have to apply I would think...(until one receives the Holy Spirit)

You have to remember that the law was accepted by those accepting the covenant at Mt. Sinai.

Those outside of the "law" were bound by the universal laws of Noah.

 

[stovebolts]

When someone gets baptised they get baptised into Israel and the Law and go into Jesus death and are judged by the Law they were never under and are imprisoned waiting for Christ to come open the gates. In the belly of the whale. Its not nessesary a bad thing but its a bumpy ride.

Baptised into the curse.

Thats why born again Christians do there best to serve, obey, and hold the commandments.

I'm sorry you see it this way..

Jesus said, this is my blood, the blood of the new covenant... Matthew 26.

This is not the mosaic covenant which instituted the "law" given at Mt. Sinia.

Rather, it is the new covenant spoken by Isaiah and Jeremiah in Jer 31:31. I can't recall where Isaiah writes about it.

The book of Hebrews is all about this new, and better covenant that is "in Christ".

And Paul gives an analogy of a will.. and Jesus tells a parable about new wine skins.... and patches being sewed onto garments...

All of these speak to a new covenant... and everyone is welcome.

Cheers.