Is Baptism an Ordinance or Command?

[eddif]

In part, I agree and I think Romans 1:17-20 touches upon this. I'm not so sure I'd add "falls short of His perfection", and that's in part what I meant about the doctrine of total depravity, which you hint at numerous times. What I see, is that God puts natural consequences in creation. Some other religions may call it Karma, or simply put, sometimes you reap what you sow... except the reality is there is no guarantee that the work of your hand will produce a crop, sometimes it's thorns... Gen 3:17-18.
That being said, "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God".... and we could speak paragraphs on this as to what it means to miss His glory.


I agree. Perhaps it's that God created us with His spirit infused in ours. We each hold that diving spark. Genesis 2:7, Ecc 3:11. If we did not have good in us, how would our conscience become seared by doing wrong? 1 Tim 4:2


While I wouldn't disagree with this, I would say that that God desires a relationship with all of his creation. 1 Timothy 2:3-4. We were created for good works, (Eph 2:10) , and when we are doing good works, we are a light to the world that should not be put under a bowl, but rather, it is put on a mountain top so that God's glory would be known.

I come from the school of thought that we are saved, we are being saved, and I will be saved. David writes in the Psalms in many places where he needs God to save him... at that moment. This I believe is part of that "Natural Law" we were talking about. But it also segway's directly into something I hinted at earlier regarding "The way". Yes, there is a way that seems right to a man, but God's way brings about not only an eternal salvation, but it saves us now from the sin of this world... think about it for a moment. In it's simplest terms, when we can forgive another, it sets us free. We don't have to pack that misery in our lives. God teaches us this in his word, and it is affirmed that it is a better "way" to live. Much of the Law is God teaching a certain people of a 'way' to live in accordance with the way that God created us to live.

I know you've written more, and I'm sorry, I ran out of time. I hope this gives you a since of my direction, and if you could, I would really appreciate it if you could do some light study on "The Way" in the OT. You can start with a simple work search. Deut 8:2 is a good start with a nice contrast with 9:16. Isaiah has much to say about this as well.

Take care, and have a great day.

I think this is a good question.
When did total depravity exist?
What broke total depravity?
What was the evidence of the change?


eddif

 

[Nathan]

I think this is a good question.
When did total depravity exist?
What broke total depravity?
What was the evidence of the change?


eddif

I looked up this total depravity thing. I can't say I agree with the doctrine as a whole, because I don't know all the implications.

What I do know is there is none good. If that's what is only meant by total depravity, I'm not sure why they wouldn't just say that.

Man quit being able to be completely good when Adam and Eve disobeyed.

Man can only 'do' good in faith. As in, the good of man can only come from God.

Evidence? One word. Fruit.

I think what happens is people misunderstand what true fruit is.

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I am not sure if this goes here or in the Theology Forum.
Romans 10:9,10 "If thou shalt confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus,and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead,thou shalt be saved.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter saith unto them,"Repent,and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost."
Phillip baptized the man from Ethiopia Acts 8:36-38
Yet the thief on the cross was not baptized Luke 23:43
I get confused when this subject is brought up in Sunday School.

It was impossible for the thief to be baptized.
So, everyone, for whom it is impossible to be baptized before they die, gets a pass.

Baptism is explained by Paul:
Rom 6:3-5
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

In Baptism, we are joined with Christ in His death and burial.
And we are raised, with Him to new life "in Christ."
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And, according to Peter, those who are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ receive the Holy Spirit.

Thus; in baptism, the believe is born again in water and the spirit and can enter the kingdom of God. (Jhn 3:5)

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Lee2000]

Hi everyone,

im not completely sure if i read it mentioned in this discussion topic or another one

but when the subject of the thief on the cross comes up

it always seems like he was the exception to the examples and teachings that Jesus taught regarding the process of salvation

i think where our translation and understanding gets over looked is we have the mind set and perception of NT converts and keep applying our pattern and understanding of how salvation is received

The thief said to Jesus remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke.23.42-43

Now we presume the thief wasn't born again or water baptized and believe it not he didn't need to be to enter paradise and then heaven with Jesus

when Jesus said to the thief today you will be with me in paradise where did Jesus's soul go that day after he died?

he went to paradise across from hell for 3 days and took the keys of hell and death and dominion back of satan and returned them to the body of Christ when he sat down on the right side of his father in heaven Revelations 1.18

remember what the rich man saw and said in hell

he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

but Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

and beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke16.19-31

both thieves did go with Jesus to hell but one of the thieves was in paradise with Abraham and Lazarus across from hell because this is where all the OT saints were kept until the fulfillment of the OT as promised by God

The thief on the cross was under the agreement of the OT, that's why Jesus said that shalt be with me in paradise

Jesus said no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven John 3.13

Then when Jesus was resurrected so were the OT saints before he took them all and the thief to heaven

and, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Mathew 27.51-53

also the veil in the temple being ripped in two from the top symbolized it was God that removed the veil so everyone could have direct access to him through his son Jesus and not ripped from the bottom indicating that man had anything to do with it

you may disagree or have a completely different view and thats fine

PS. i suspect that when Jesus was in paradise across from hell he revealed to the OT saints he was there Messiah and that if they believed on him they would be saved before they could enter heaven

Peace

 

[eddif]

I looked up this total depravity thing. I can't say I agree with the doctrine as a whole, because I don't know all the implications.

What I do know is there is none good. If that's what is only meant by total depravity, I'm not sure why they wouldn't just say that.

Man quit being able to be completely good when Adam and Eve disobeyed.

Man can only 'do' good in faith. As in, the good of man can only come from God.

Evidence? One word. Fruit.

I think what happens is people misunderstand what true fruit is.

Total depravity (IMHO) fits at one point in time.
Genesis 6:5 KJV
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart wasonly evil continually.

This total depravity brought about the flood.

However the symbolism shows redemption in an impossible situation can happen.
Noah found favor (Jesus was the son in whom God was well pleased).

Punishment caused those on the boat to consider the consequences of sin.

Did the flood help break the continual sin?

One son looked on the nakedness of his father,
But
Two sons covered the nakedness of their father.

Sin was no longer total. The total depravity was broken. Did sin still exist? Yes. Was it total? No.

From this biblical incident the total depravity doctrine arose (IMHO).
But
You can not have a doctrine brought forward after it is dealt with.

Today sin no longer has dominion over those who trust in the suffering, death, burial, ressurrection, assertion, sending of the quickening spirit by Jesus.

Today we are not totally depraved as a total world of people. Sin no longer has dominion over christians.

Rednecks just are strange
eddif

 

[stovebolts]

Total depravity (IMHO) fits at one point in time.
Genesis 6:5 KJV
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart wasonly evil continually.

This total depravity brought about the flood.

However the symbolism shows redemption in an impossible situation can happen.
Noah found favor (Jesus was the son in whom God was well pleased).

Punishment caused those on the boat to consider the consequences of sin.

Did the flood help break the continual sin?

One son looked on the nakedness of his father,
But
Two sons covered the nakedness of their father.

Sin was no longer total. The total depravity was broken. Did sin still exist? Yes. Was it total? No.

From this biblical incident the total depravity doctrine arose (IMHO).
But
You can not have a doctrine brought forward after it is dealt with.

Today sin no longer has dominion over those who trust in the suffering, death, burial, ressurrection, assertion, sending of the quickening spirit by Jesus.

Today we are not totally depraved as a total world of people. Sin no longer has dominion over christians.

Rednecks just are strange
eddif

While I agree, it's worthy to note that Noah found favor in Gods eye... there is always a remnant. Thus, total depravity can only exist within an individual and is not inherited.
I would suggest that depravity occurs when one willingly goes against ones conscience and as Paul writes, the conscience becomes seared. This, I believe is the sin that leads to death that James writes about and it is the same sin of Adam.
We see in the garden that Adams sin was a willful sin and this is affirmed in his response to God in regard for Eve.

It's human nature at its core. When we do something we know is wrong, we look for an escape to blame somebody else. In other words, instead of "bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh", Adam states, "this woman who YOU gave me". It's almost as if Adam is saying it's Gods fault.

 

[stovebolts]

I like to think of it like this:

Jesus is:

The Way: He is the way, the road we are to follow if we're to become members of the Kingdom. Members of the Kingdom detach themselves emotionally from the world and wish to follow the divine in them.

The Truth: You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. What is the truth? Satan wishes to gain control of our soul. If we know this, we can be careful to keep away from satan and serve God instead. Only then are we truly free.

The Life: Jesus is the spark of that divine life that is in us. He gives us "eternal life". The divine that we follow is given to us by Jesus, He is that divine life that comes alive through Him. Zeos life. We die to death and come alive to life.

Read Matthew 5 thru 7... Jesus ends by saying the road is narrow and few find it...
The above chapters come directly out of the Law and in summary are an outline to the two greatest commandments.

If you want to know what this looks like, look no further than Jesus and he will not only show you the way, he is the way, by way of example.

 

[Nathan]

I agree. Perhaps it's that God created us with His spirit infused in ours. We each hold that diving spark. Genesis 2:7, Ecc 3:11. If we did not have good in us, how would our conscience become seared by doing wrong? 1 Tim 4:2

I don't think we are created with His Spirit infused in ours. Now, if your speaking of the Spirit of God, living inside the life of the believer upon receiving God's faith - then yes, we have His Spirit inside.

But before that, there is no Spirit of God inside man. There is no good in man apart from the Spirit, and there never has been. It has always been mankind living through God that good came from. Even in the Garden, it was only because Adam and Eve ate from the tree of Life that Good came about. After they no longer had access to it, and throughout the rest of the days of mankind, this good only comes through faith.

That faith is "the way" of which you speak. Its not a faith of ourselves, but rather a faith God gives us - and we must receive. That's exactly why it is impossible for man to have anything in himself apart from God.

 

[eddif]

StoveBolts it looks like you are our target. I hope not.

Remnant:
Ah yes another mountain doctrine to take and fill in a valley. Really I do not know how to do this.

While I agree, it's worthy to note that Noah found favor in Gods eye... there is always a remnant. Thus, total depravity can only exist within an individual and is not inherited.

Remenant doctrine may start at the flood too. All of mankind was doomed till the (But). Eight souls are the remenant of all mankind. Every one of us today had a distant relative on that boat.

Heresy / unsound doctrine can spread like a cancer. The wrath of God is seen against false doctrine (or against actions that may be based on bad thinking). Thus one bad apple may lead to others being infected.

There was a remenant on the day of Pentecost. A type of man about to have Word in heart and mind (starting with Jewish persons)
But
That remenant became one new man over time.

I will not try and define the difference in man before Jesus and after Jesus right now, but one was a temporal man (till Jesus preached to them in the grave). After the lambs book of life things changed again.

Types and shadows are not eternal realities. Shadows point our attention to Jesus (the one who cast the shadows(, but human eternal realities are based on Christ Jesus.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

Baptism removes original sin.
Did we inherit original sin or did we just inherit the death that it brings to our soul?
I remember reading that we cannot be RESPONSIBLE for Adam's sin, although its effects inflict death to our spirit, which was lost at that point and now all are born sinful.
(the spirit is regained when being born from above and receiving the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nathan]

Baptism removes original sin.
Did we inherit original sin or did we just inherit the death that it brings to our soul?
I remember reading that we cannot be RESPONSIBLE for Adam's sin, although its effects inflict death to our spirit, which was lost at that point and now all are born sinful.
(the spirit is regained when being born from above and receiving the Holy Spirit.

Your speaking of spiritual baptism right?

We inherited the desire to sin, which is what brings death. Letter of James lays out the 'sequence of events'.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your speaking of spiritual baptism right?

We inherited the desire to sin, which is what brings death. Letter of James lays out the 'sequence of events'.

I'm speaking of water baptism. Am I getting my Catholic theology mixed up with Protestant theology?
I do that at times since I know both.

Have to find where I read this. I can't remember.
Adam's sin was not imputed to us, but yet we're born with the sin nature, which is a RESULT of his sin.
We are held responsible ONLY for the sins WE actually commit. Not for the sin of Adam.
We do receive its result in our body and in the loss of our spirit.

Will look it up in my books...

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm speaking of water baptism. Am I getting my Catholic theology mixed up with Protestant theology?
I do that at times since I know both.

Have to find where I read this. I can't remember.
Adam's sin was not imputed to us, but yet we're born with the sin nature, which is a RESULT of his sin.
We are held responsible ONLY for the sins WE actually commit. Not for the sin of Adam.
We do receive its result in our body and in the loss of our spirit.

Will look it up in my books...

You're in line with this Baptist Teacher.

 

[Nathan]

I would caution the thought that water baptism is what removes sin. It could be seen just like doing good works help or add to our salvation.

I'm so glad that we have the account of the thief on the cross. There could be a lot of misunderstanding without it.

He never saw a drop of water, much less was baptized in it. I assure you, he had his sin removed.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're in line with this Baptist Teacher.

Thanks Bill.

I thought this was right, wanted to make sure.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would caution the thought that water baptism is what removes sin. It could be seen just like doing good works help or add to our salvation.

I'm so glad that we have the account of the thief on the cross. There could be a lot of misunderstanding without it.

He never saw a drop of water, much less was baptized in it. I assure you, he had his sin removed.

How do you explain Acts 2:38?

(I don't believe you're lost if not baptized)

 

[Nathan]

How do you explain Acts 2:38?

(I don't believe you're lost if not baptized)

I'd reffer you back to post #2.

To be baptized in the name of Jesus is to be immersed in "Jesus" who is the "Christ".

His name means Jehovah is salvation, His title means anointed. To be baptized in those, it means to come to the full understanding, and identity, of Jesus being the only Savior and Son of God.

Peter prefaced this statement with "repent". Which means to turn from. So they needed to know what to turn too. Turn from your sin, turn to the only one who can take away sin.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Being convicted under the Law of God and asking for forgiveness does not take away sin. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Belief in Christ takes away Sin.

Look to God as a sinner constantly being convicted always pleading for forgiveness, or, just believe in Jesus.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'd reffer you back to post #2.

To be baptized in the name of Jesus is to be immersed in "Jesus" who is the "Christ".

His name means Jehovah is salvation, His title means anointed. To be baptized in those, it means to come to the full understanding, and identity, of Jesus being the only Savior and Son of God.

Peter prefaced this statement with "repent". Which means to turn from. So they needed to know what to turn too. Turn from your sin, turn to the only one who can take away sin.

AMEN!

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello wondering dirtfarmer here

As I understand, when Christ was crucified on the cross, the sin of the world was paid for by his blood( life is in the blood). It is the sin of unbelief that consigns and condemns a person to the lake of fire. Baptism for the remission of sin is a "kingdom" thing, not a "heir" thing. It was John that preached "baptism for repentance of sin". Paul, the apostle, preached that we are cleansed by the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross. Paul also preached the believer is dead with Christ in his crucifixion but made alive by the life of the risen savior. In the gospel of the kingdom there is nothing about the crucifixion, burial, or resurrection.

May be a comparison of the "gospel of the kingdom" and the "gospel of grace" would be in order, as a bible study.