Is baptismal regeneration biblical?

[FreeGrace]

Of course it refers to water.

Again, no.

Peter is saying the water is not for removal of dirt on our flesh, but for the response from a heart that has faith towards God.

Exactly not. He clearly indicated that the baptism that "now saves" is NOT literal water. He was obviously referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is a real identification and a dry one. Not ceremonial, which is what water baptism is.

What else would clean dirt off our flesh, besides water?

Exactly. Which is why he was clear about what "now saves us" isn''t the water that cleans dirt off our flesh. Go ahead and read the verse again.

Peter is teaching that the baptism of water is not for cleaning the flesh of dirt, but is obedience towards God.

Again, no.

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:20-21

Again, from v.21, the "antitype which now saves us" is baptism. Then Peter in the CLEAREST of words says this: "NOT the removal of the filth of the flesh". That would be water baptism. But he was referring to Spirit baptism, which John the baptizer differentiated from his own baptism which was by water.

 

[FreeGrace]

It means Jesus baptizing us with the Holy Spirit.

Right. And this baptism is dry, not wet.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked:
"Was it for eternal salvation? Clearly NOT."

If Jesus teaches up to be baptized in water then we need to obey Him.

Did Jesus specifically say that water baptism was in order to be saved? Of course not.

If a person rebels against water baptism then they should not expect to receive the Holy Spirit.

This is quite incorrect. A person receives the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe in Christ, as the Bible very clearly says.
Gal 3:2 - I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
Gal 3:5 - Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

otoh, please provide any verse that says that the Holy Spirit is given during water baptism. I will not hold my breath waiting for an answer.

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree a person needs to be born again first, then get baptized in water.

Which is WHEN one receives the Holy Spirit. When they are born again, which is WHEN they believe in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

Windsong said: ↑
Where does God say he will evict the Holy Spirit that indwells his faithful if they are not obedient always?

I don't believe there is such a scripture.

Nor have I implied such a thing.

Wowsers!! Really? Eph 1:13,14 speaks to the fact that when one believes, they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee of the believer's inheritance as God's possession, yet you've strongly argued that a believer can lose salvation and therefore (obviously) lose the Holy Spirit AND the inheritance which has been guaranteed by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

It seems maybe you've repented of your former views. That would be good.

I did however quote a scripture that says God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him.

The Bible is clear about WHEN one receives the Holy Spirit. WHEN they believe in Christ. And they are sealed in Christ at that moment.

And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Acts 5:32

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus Christ whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:8-9
receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

What reason is there for the incorrect assumption that "end of your faith" means "end of your life", as it seems you've assumed??

The Greek word is:
NT:5056 telos (tel'-os); from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically, an impost or levy (as paid):

So we see that there is absolutely NO REASON at all to assume that "end of faith" means "end of life". It means the completion of one's faith, which is WHEN one believes in Christ for salvation.

 

[JLB]

I think we're saying the same thing

Close.

I just used "saved by faith" to indicate while in this life we have the hope of salvation, which we will receive as an end result of our faith.

Salvation begins when we obey the Gospel.


Like receiving the good news that our lottery ticket is a winner, we don't yet have the end result of what the winning lottery ticket says.

You can not yet write any checks from your bank account, because you have a winning lottery ticket, even though you have joy because you know you have won.

If we are foolish and misplace our ticket, or decide to throw it away because of all the horror stories about how people who win the lottery end up with ruined lives, then we will not receive the end result.

If someone threatens to kill us if we don't give them the ticket, and we give them our ticket, then we will not receive the end result of our ticket.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

In this life, we have faith for salvation, which we will receive as an end result of our life of continuing in the faith.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

• though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ
• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Paul says it this way -

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


Paul using the language of faith, says we are waiting for it with perseverance.

• we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees
• But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Wowsers!! Really? Eph 1:13,14 speaks to the fact that when one believes, they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee of the believer's inheritance as God's possession, yet you've strongly argued that a believer can lose salvation and therefore (obviously) lose the Holy Spirit AND the inheritance which has been guaranteed by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

It seems maybe you've repented of your former views. That would be good.

A believer can indeed depart from the faith, or be removed from being "in Christ", or not inherit the kingdom of God because they lived their life practicing the works of the flesh.


I don't see a scripture that says... he will evict the Holy Spirit that indwells his faithful if they are not obedient always?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Could that happen on this forum where 'anyone who stirs up conflict in the community', God hates?

Yes it could and does happen here, where false teachers pour out lies and twist the plain straightforward truth of the scriptures, in which they teach heresy.


Christians who promote heresies will not inherit the kingdom of God, which is what Paul taught us.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


In addition, John teaches us that all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Close.

I just used "saved by faith" to indicate while in this life we have the hope of salvation, which we will receive as an end result of our faith.

Salvation begins when we obey the Gospel.

Such views are NOT supported by Scripture. Jesus said only 4 times that whoever believes HAS, as in CURRENT POSSESSION eternal life.

So, how can one currently possess eternal life and NOT be saved at that moment. It seems you've not thought through your assumptions very much.

Salvation begins WHEN we believe.

Like receiving the good news that our lottery ticket is a winner, we don't yet have the end result of what the winning lottery ticket says.

Totally NOT like that.

If we are foolish and misplace our ticket, or decide to throw it away because of all the horror stories about how people who win the lottery end up with ruined lives, then we will not receive the end result.

So, please show the thread any verse that even hints that one can be "foolish and misplace" our salvation.

Analogy failure. Very poor example. Not even close to Scripture.

If someone threatens to kill us if we don't give them the ticket, and we give them our ticket, then we will not receive the end result of our ticket.

Getting worse.

 

[JLB]

Billy,

I'm of the view that Mark 16:9-20 does not belong in Scripture. You can read my reasons in my article, Does Mark 16:9-20 belong in Scripture?

These verses are not in the earliest MSS, so they were added after that time. When the NIV states after Mark 16:8, 'The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20', it is not taking away from Scripture but highlighting the fact that vv 9-20 have been added and not the NIV deleting these words.

The ESV, NASB, NLT, and NRSV also conclude as the NIV regarding Mark 16:9-20.

I've written more on this issue in The King James Version disagreement: Is the Greek text behind the KJV New Testament superior to that used by modern Bible translations?

Oz

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10:44-48

Here is one of the signs from Mark 16:17, speaking in tongues, as well as Peter an Apostle of Jesus Christ commanding that these who had received the Holy Spirit, to be baptized in water.



As far as the NIV is concerned, it cuts out whole sections of scripture, just like the Jehovahs witness bible.

Example:

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 NKJV

For there are three that testify: 1 John 5:7 NIV

• Here is a list of other verse's left out or explained away in the NIV Bible.

Matthew 17:21 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."

Matthew 18:11 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."

Matthew 21:44 -- removed in the footnotes

Matthew 23:14 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."

Mark 7:16 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."

Mark 9:44 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Mark 9:46 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Mark 11:26 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

Mark 15:28 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors."

Mark 16:9-20 (all 12 verses) -- There is a line separating the last 12 verses of Mark from the main text. Right under the line it says: [The two most reliable early manuscripts do not have Mark 16:9-20] (NIV, 1978 ed.) The Jehovah's Witness "Bible" also places the last 12 verses of Mark as an appendix of sorts.

Luke 17:36 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Luke 22:44 -- removed in the footnotes

Luke 22:43 -- removed in the footnotes

Luke 23:17 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"(For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)"

John 5:4 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had."

John 7:53-8:11 -- removed in the footnotes

Acts 8:37 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. It's deletion makes one think that people can be baptized and saved without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Sounds Catholic. What are you NIV readers missing?
"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Acts 15:34 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still."

Acts 24:7 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,"

Acts 28:29 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves."

Romans 16:24 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

I John 5:7 -- Vitally important phrase COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. In the NIV it says,




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

A believer can indeed depart from the faith

They remain SEALED IN HIM with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13) about whom Jesus said would be with us FOREVER (John 14:16). The Holy Spirit is a guarantee of our inheritance as God's possession (Eph 1:14).

But some simply don't believe these verses. Or properly understand them.

or be removed from being "in Christ", or not inherit the kingdom of God because they lived their life practicing the works of the flesh.

If this were true, then Eph 1:13,14 cannot be true.

 

[JLB]

Such views are NOT supported by Scripture. Jesus said only 4 times that whoever believes HAS, as in CURRENT POSSESSION eternal life.

So, how can one currently possess eternal life and NOT be saved at that moment. It seems you've not thought through your assumptions very much.

Salvation begins WHEN we believe.


Totally NOT like that.


So, please show the thread any verse that even hints that one can be "foolish and misplace" our salvation.

Analogy failure. Very poor example. Not even close to Scripture.


Getting worse.

If you want to debate this one on one then start a thread, this thread is about baptismal regeneration.



JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB,

Do you realise that God hates?

16 There are six things the Lord hates.

In fact, he hates seven things.

17 The Lord hates proud eyes,

a lying tongue,

and hands that kill those who aren’t guilty.

18 He also hates hearts that make evil plans

and feet that are quick to do evil.

19 He hates any witness who pours out lies

and anyone who stirs up conflict in the community.​

(Prov 6:16-29 NIRV).​

Could that happen on this forum where 'anyone who stirs up conflict in the community', God hates?

Rom 9:13 (NIV), 'Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated'".

Oz

Do you believe a Christian brother can hate his brother, and still have eternal life dwelling in him?

13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:13-15

• A Christian brother who hates his brother in Christ, no longer has eternal life abiding in him.

23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

Shutting down for the VOLUME of sniping and snarky remarks.

Season your speech with grace. It's not a request it's a requirement.