Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$905.00
Goal
$1,038.00
It's actually the other way around. From a historical and cultural perspective every Jew who died spent time in Gehenna. How long depended upon what needed to be purged. It was said that a good rabi would only pass through Gehenna and because his soul was so clean, he could pick up souls and take them with him as he passed through. Jews today still believe this and it is written by the Sages pre-Christ.

I would put forward that every Jew in the days of Jesus understood Gehenna in a far different way than we do today. But what both of our cultures understand is that Gehenna wasnt a nice place and was to be avoided at all cost. It was tormenting, yet necasarry like a refiners fire. Hence, purgatory.

Hades was very similar. Everyone who died went there and it was more like Hotel 6 than the Hilton. Tartarus was in the deepest Bowles of Hades and was reserved for only the most wicked.

I do not deny Hell, but I do try to hear the words of Jesus from the perspective of the original listeners.
No, I did read you correctly in the way around your prior post informed. Purgatory has its roots in Gehenna.
As your post here reiterates. :) Thanks for that.

I would ask if you think the Jewish journey that you refer to would apply to those who accept and received Messiah as Savior today?
I think too to receive Emmanuel's teachings as spoken by him to his people. And for all time to come. Matthew 10:28 remains in the context of the entire chapter something that is compelling in matters of denying suffering in Hell is eternal.

I did search for what you wrote about early Jewish writings of Gehenna being the root of Purgatory. And found a few resources that speak to that.

Rabbinic Views.
The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.

Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: "From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"; the former interpreting the words "from one new moon to another" to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words "from one Sabbath to another," in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).

The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a).

Jewish Encyclopedia PURGATORY:
By: Kaufmann Kohler
*Pastings are edited out of order from original site*
History of Purgatory.
The idea of the purging fire through which the soul has to pass is found in the Zend-Avesta ("Bundahis," xxx. 20): "All men will pass into the melted metal and become pure; to the righteous it will seem as though he walks through warm milk" (comp. Enoch, lii. 6-7, lxvii. 6-7). The Church Fathers developed the idea of the "ignis purgatorius" into a dogma according to which all souls, including those of the righteous who remain unscathed, have to pass the purgatory (Origen on Ps. xxxvii., Homily 3; Lactantius, "Divinæ Institutiones," vii. 21, 4-7; Jerome on Ps. cxviii., Sermon 20; Commodianus, "Instructiones," ii. 2, 9); hence prayers and offerings for the souls in purgatory were instituted (Tertullian, "De Corona Militis," 3-4; "De Monogamia," 10; "Exhortatio Castitatis," 11; Augustine, "Enchiridion ad Lauram," 67-69, 109; Gregory I., "Dialogi," iv. 57). Hence also arose in the Church the mass for the dead corresponding in the Synagogue to the Ḳaddish (see Ḳaddish).

Full Encyclopedic entry http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12446-purgatory
 
Well that's certainly an interesting direction for this discussion! To begin with let me clarify that I would never defend either the Apocrypha or RC doctrine; I've only read two books of the Apocrypha and would only suggest those have some use where they don't contradict Scripture but might give some back story to help better understand Scripture itself.

Using praying for the dead is itself controversial in that the NT makes one obscure reference to being Baptized for the dead in 1 Cor 15:29, without condemning the practice or declaring it futile that I can see. So I don't see anything conclusive here either way.

Is God incapable of making the Judgment that an individual should suffer hell fire for a period of His choosing, after which they're redeemed? I try to be very careful about any such thoughts that limit God.

I find Scripture to be silent on anything past "all Judgment is given to the Son." And of course we know all His Judgments are just and true, and His ways past finding out.
I thought so to. However, when you mentioned it I thought it would be worthy of fleshing out so as to arrive at proper context should the discourse proceed.

Blessings.
 
Yes and Yes,

The first "yes":
God could have spoken us into being just like the animals...but He didn't.
He could have spoken and we would have become a living "nepesh" like the animals...but He didn't.
He could have made us to look like anything but instead he made us in the image of what is the very best.... Himself.

All of this speaks to a higher level of concern and care about mankind. Where not expressly stated the inference is not lost on those of us with craftsmanship talents.
I lead crews of men (and a few women). Most of the time I just tell them what to do. But if the project is important enough I bring in my tools and do it myself...and usually show off a bit. I'm not the only one who does that either.

God's omnipotence:
All power comes from God. God is perfectly efficient in his use of power. There is no unintended "spillover" effect. (Otherwise He isn't Sovereign or omniscient)
All power belongs to God and no one has any that God doesn't specifically uphold.
Therefore your next breath isn't at God's acquiescence but at His active support. God's supply of power is infinite and all power returns to it's Creator... therefore He never loses any.

John,

That's an individual satisfactory explanation but it is reading between the lines and so is arguing from silence. There were no biblical data given to support the statements.

I find a better explanation to come from verses such as Rom 1:20 (NIV):

'For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse'.

God demonstrates his invisible qualities of eternal power and divine nature through what he has made and this verse includes 'people'.

Oz
 
John,

That's an individual satisfactory explanation but it is reading between the lines and so is arguing from silence. There were no biblical data given to support the statements.

I find a better explanation to come from verses such as Rom 1:20 (NIV):



God demonstrates his invisible qualities of eternal power and divine nature through what he has made and this verse includes 'people'.

Oz
Well that works too...
I know I know...you go through all the trouble of paving with yellow bricks and I still miss the path.
 
Well that works too...
I know I know...you go through all the trouble of paving with yellow bricks and I still miss the path.
Here you go.
635457765288033431_stickfiguresearchcluesanim500clr2470.gif
You know, for next time. :wink:hug
Hey, works for me.
MSN-Emoticon-nerd-007.gif~c200
 
Papa,

In my view, you were a victim of a red herring fallacy when the quote you gave from Pinnock on annihilation was turned into a comment about Pinnock's unorthodox views on open theism. It was a change of topic, but looked like having a connection - Pinnock - when it didn't.

For heaven's sake, your comment was about Pinnock on hell and not other theology by Pinnock.

I'm familiar with Edward Fudge's original edition of The Fire that Consumes, which is an exposition on annihilationism, but I haven't read it in its entirety - naughty boy I am! I should get it and read. It's now in a 3rd edition. I expected Fudge to promote annihilationism to coincide with the fact he is a Seventh Day Adventist. The SDAs support annihilationism as a tenant of faith. Ellen G White, founding prophetess of the SDAs, taught: 'The final, complete, annihilation of the wicked at the close of the millennium' (source).

Oz

Thanks Oz. I've never heard of Fudge before this week. The book intrigues me and I'd like to hear the arguments he makes. I'm particularly interested because of the positive reviews. Also nice to know the arguments on all sides of a question.
 
Papa,

In #239 you stated that 'God is first and foremost a God of love'. I asked for scriptural support.

Now you provide 1 John 4:8 as that biblical support. What does this verse state? 'Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love' (NIRV).

This does not state that God is first and foremost a God of love. What does it state? 'God is love'. Nothing is said about his attribute of love being 'foremost'. God's love is only one of his attributes. How about His attributes of omnipresence, omniscience (knowing Himself and all other things), omnipotence, immutability, holiness, righteousness/justice, goodness, benevolence, mercy, grace and truth?

Oz

You're right. I threw in a little commentary. I'll have to look into this further but I'd say that all God's attributes emanate from his core and that core is his love. :) His goodness flows from His love. His mercy flows from His love. And on from there. ;)
 
If there is no eternal existence being dead to God in hell then that would be the 2nd best news ever told and the absolute best news for those who hate Christians and Jesus .. Why even preach repentance and Jesus or put yourself up for persecution if there is no eternal hell ? God is Holy and Righteous , he is also a God of law and his Word ..
 
Bible Research.Org (used with permission)
Hell Is Simply the Grave

Hell is simply the grave, as taught in the Bible. Where do we go when we die? The Bible is very clear on this subject. Christ, the apostles, and the prophets teach that when a person dies they are asleep in a state of inactivity until the time of their resurrection. Some clergy explain that when someone dies, good people go to heaven and bad people go to "hell", being tortured by demons for all eternity. This false teaching has been passed on as an accepted belief for centuries. Some clergy say the deceased are now "looking down from heaven, watching over you". Have you ever been to a funeral where the clergyman says, "This man didn't quite live up to the standard and is now screaming at us from below, being tortured by a fiery landscape of brimstone and dwelling among devils?" Probably not. To condemn an individual this way would be to judge him, and the Bible says it’s not time for judgment" (Ecclesiastes 3:17, 12:14). If they declare a person is in heaven, is that not also making a judgment on them? It is not for us to judge.

Also, reason this, that the Bible teaches that we either live forever or die forever (Deuteronomy 30:19). If a person was being tortured for all eternity, wouldn't he or she still be alive? When a person dies, they are asleep in the grave until their time of resurrection (Daniel 12:2).

9. Hell Is Simply the Grave
The Grave Hell (Strong’s Concordance #7585) in the Hebrew translation meaning Sheol or “grave”.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20
When people die, they sleep in the grave until the time of judgment.

Ecclesiastes 9:10
When people are dead, they have no thoughts or actions.

Jonah 1:17, 2:1-2
Jonah cried to God from his would-be grave.

Acts 2:25-31
When Jesus Christ died, he was put into his tomb, but was not left in hell (the grave). His Father brought him back to life after three days and three nights. (See also 1 Kings 2:10 and Matthew 12:40.)

Revelation 20:13-14
Death and the grave (hell) are eliminated.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Definition_for_Hell.jpg

Uber,

A major problem I have with this exposition is that it does not give the full meaning of Hades in the NT.

In the LXX (Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew OT), the Hebrew Sheol is translated by Hades in OT Greek. However, what does Hades mean in the NT. Even Strong's acknowledges the breadth of meaning that context helps to determine the specifics. Strong's:

ᾅδης (hadēs)
Strong: G86​
GK: G87​
the invisible abode or mansion of the dead; the place of punishment, hell; the lowest place or condition, Mt. 11:23; Lk. 10:15

Because of progressive revelation, we don't get the full meaning of Hades in the OT. It it explained further in the NT where there are three words for 'hell': Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus. Therefore, we need to translate these different words differently in context.

The KJV fouled it up for us by translating all 3 of these nouns as 'hell'.

Oz
 
You're right. I threw in a little commentary. I'll have to look into this further but I'd say that all God's attributes emanate from his core and that core is his love. :) His goodness flows from His love. His mercy flows from His love. And on from there. ;)

Sounds like a presupposition to me.
 
Uber,

A major problem I have with this exposition is that it does not give the full meaning of Hades in the NT.

In the LXX (Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew OT), the Hebrew Sheol is translated by Hades in OT Greek. However, what does Hades mean in the NT. Even Strong's acknowledges the breadth of meaning that context helps to determine the specifics. Strong's:

ᾅδης (hadēs)
Strong: G86​
GK: G87​
the invisible abode or mansion of the dead; the place of punishment, hell; the lowest place or condition, Mt. 11:23; Lk. 10:15

Because of progressive revelation, we don't get the full meaning of Hades in the OT. It it explained further in the NT where there are three words for 'hell': Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus. Therefore, we need to translate these different words differently in context.

The KJV fouled it up for us by translating all 3 of these nouns as 'hell'.

Oz
I appreciate your post.

This has been a topic of discussion in churches probably for ages.
This site expounds on the identities of Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Hell, quite well I think.
I do believe , contrary to their affirmation, that the everlasting place of torment that they reference per the scriptures, does indeed exist as a place. However, I still hold to what Matthew.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The entire chapter bears relevance to that warning and foretelling of the destiny of the dead. Therefore, which would it actually be? Eternal suffering in a place of torment for what are sins in a finite lifetime? Paying for eternity for being and bearing the human personality God installed? While eternal life in paradise in the presence of God awaits those who are redeemed from their sins and yet do continue to sin but those are not counted against them due to having an emissary between us and the Father; Emmanuel?
And how would that work, the eternal suffering in Hell's fires? When God is love. God is omniscient.
The Bible tells us that God is omniscient. He knows everything. He knows many things before they happen. The Bible speaks of many things as being predestined or foreordained - large words that mean that God planned them and knew of them before they happened.
Full article:Does God Know Everything - Scripture Insights
www.scriptureinsights.com/Foreknow.html





God knew us, his own, before he created the world. Ephesians 1:4-5 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will ...

And, Ephesians1:4 "Just as he chose us beforehand in him from before the foundation of the universe, that we shall be holy and without spot before him, and he ordained us beforehand in love for himself. "

What then would it mean for those not chosen before the creation of the world, those conversely who were not chosen in him from before the foundation of the universe? To burn in eternal Hell and suffer eternally? By God's will as would be imparted as the converse of Ephesians 1:4 for those of us who are in Christ.

It is curious to think predetermination would then entail those not chosen before hand to then be chosen to suffer the fiery Hell for all time. And again, curious considering the Matthew verse too.

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form.
 
Last edited:
If there is no eternal existence being dead to God in hell then that would be the 2nd best news ever told and the absolute best news for those who hate Christians and Jesus

Scripture says otherwise.

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
Hebrews 2:14-15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 2:14-15&version=NASB

Christ haters fear death. ⬆️

Christ believers do not:⬇️

28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=NASB
 
If there is no eternal existence being dead to God in hell then that would be the 2nd best news ever told and the absolute best news for those who hate Christians and Jesus .. Why even preach repentance and Jesus or put yourself up for persecution if there is no eternal hell ? God is Holy and Righteous , he is also a God of law and his Word ..

Oh, PLENTY of reason without ECT! Even without eternity, 1,000 years?!? I assure you, 1 year or one moment of this is more than enough ...
 
Uber,

A major problem I have with this exposition is that it does not give the full meaning of Hades in the NT.

In the LXX (Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew OT), the Hebrew Sheol is translated by Hades in OT Greek. However, what does Hades mean in the NT. Even Strong's acknowledges the breadth of meaning that context helps to determine the specifics. Strong's:

ᾅδης (hadēs)
Strong: G86​
GK: G87​
the invisible abode or mansion of the dead; the place of punishment, hell; the lowest place or condition, Mt. 11:23; Lk. 10:15

Because of progressive revelation, we don't get the full meaning of Hades in the OT. It it explained further in the NT where there are three words for 'hell': Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus. Therefore, we need to translate these different words differently in context.

The KJV fouled it up for us by translating all 3 of these nouns as 'hell'.

Oz

There you show sheol as being ' the lowest condition.' Elsewhere it's shown to be the least grievous. Is there an official pecking order here?
 
They have pills for that now you know. :yes:wink
The babes in your avatar are too precious. Love the smiles. There's always a smile behind the binky.
They certainly are that. Too precious! Also 11 and 13 now. :/ But I may be moving close to them and I love teens.

Looking for my pills now!
 
Back
Top