Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

[Willie T]

The devil and death will also be thrown in. How about them. Also, for the humans, isn't annihilation a JW teaching.

It was actually an original Jewish teaching.

 

[Jim Parker]

isn't annihilation a JW teaching.

It is.
The JWs are a spin-off from the 7th Day Adventists who also teach annihilation. (and that the body is the soul and Jesus is Michael the Archangel and the spirit is your breath - oh yeah...)

 

[Razeontherock]

The body is the soul? That's some pretty confused theology, lol (Adamology?)

 

[Jim Parker]

The body is the soul? That's some pretty confused theology, lol (Adamology?)

Yeah. There's a lot of that stuff floating around out there.
That's what I was told by a 7th Day A.
I asked him to explain Mat 10:28.
“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
He couldn't. All he could do was recite the canned response he was taught to parrot by his church. It made no sense whatsoever and he had no clue that he was babbling. I refer to that condition as a "cult mentality." (One does not have to be in a cult to have it.)


iakov the fool

 

[Razeontherock]

Goes right along with the Pyramids were built to store grain.

 

[Jim Parker]

Goes right along with the Pyramids were built to store grain.

Yeah.
Stick to medicine, doc.

 

[UberMink]

In the Book of Genesis, the Lord explained the meaning of death to Adam that would be the result if he ate of the forbidden fruit. In that explanation, the Lord informed the man that he would return to the dust from which he came, for dust he is and to dust he will return. In this there is no mention of the man suffering in eternal flames without a moments relief, surely, a loving Father would warn His child of this most terrible fate if it were true.

Since the Lord made no mention of this terrible fate of the unrepentant sinner, how is it that the sinner that the Lord said was mortal has now become immortal and live throughout all eternality even though it’s in hell. At what point did the mortal man became immortal spirit? I know that the Word of God doesn’t contradict itself, but something is not adding up here!

Please read this in full first. Jeremiah 7 EBV
An excerpt:
The Valley of Killing
29 “‘Cut off your hair [C the Hebrew phrase suggests a Nazirite vow and thus consecrated hair; Num. 6:5] and throw it away. Go up to the bare hilltop [3:2] and ·cry out [lament], because the Lord has rejected these people. He has turned his back on ·them, and in his anger will punish them [L the generation that enrages him]. 30 The ·people [descendants; sons] of Judah have done ·what I said was evil [L evil in my eyes], says the Lord. They have set up their ·hateful [loathsome; abominable] idols in the ·place where I have chosen to be worshiped [L house that is called by my name] and have made it ·unclean [defiled; C in a ritual sense]. 31 The people of Judah have built ·places of worship [L high places; C sites associated with pagan worship or inappropriate worship of God; Deut. 12] at Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom [2 Kin. 23:10–11]. There they burned their own sons and daughters as sacrifices, something I never commanded. It never even entered my ·mind



Ecclesiastes 12 Expanded Bible Version
7.You will turn back into the dust of the earth again [L The dust will return to the earth as it was],
·but your [L and the] spirit will return to God who gave it [3:21;Gen. 2:7; 3:19].
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken.x For dust you are and to dust you will return.”


1 John 4:·Dear friends [L Beloved], ·we should [let us] love each other, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has ·become God’s child [L been begotten/fathered by God] and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

ἀγαπάω (agapaō)
Strong: G25
GK: G26
to love, value, esteem, feel or manifest generous concern for, be faithful towards; to delight in, to set store upon, Rev. 12:11

 

[JLB]

2. Rev 20:10 is the only verse in the entire Bible (the only Scripture, that is) that speaks of "Eternal Torment". And it's not even a vision of lost post-judged people's torment but rather eternal torment of the Devil and His demons (who evidently cannot die a first death ("return to the dust") much less a second death at the hands of God.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those[g] who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12

• He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,

Their torment continues day and night, in which the evidence of their torment ascends forever and ever.

Kinda like the ole saying... where there’s smoke, there is fire.


JLB

 

[chessman]

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

This verse doesn’t say they are tormented eternally (but rather tormented with fire and brimstone). In fact, Biblically speaking, we know when and where and for how long this torment occurs:

And I looked, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. And I saw another angel flying directly overhead, having an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who reside on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people, And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud, “Send out your sickle and reap, because the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe!” And the one seated on the cloud swung his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.​

Revelation 14:1,6,15-16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:1,6,15-16&version=LEB

It occurs when The Lamb returns to stand on Mount Zion.

It occurs on the Earth

It occurs in the hour of His return to the Earth.

Do you believe that The Lamb and Holy angels are present in The Lake of Fire eternally?

Their torment continues day and night

This is not what the Text says. It says they have no rest (not rest) day and night.

Kinda like the ole saying... where there’s smoke, there is fire.

Which isn’t a Biblical saying. But let’s go with it for a moment:

Since the passage literally says their (the reaped Beast worshippers) smoke goes up forever, do you believe that the godless Beast Worshipers are devoured/consumed ‘up in smoke’ forever?

Sinners are afraid in Zion; trembling has seized the godless: “Who of us can live with devouring fire? Who of us can live with everlasting consuming hearths?”​

Isaiah 33:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 33:14&version=LEB

 

[JLB]

This verse doesn’t say they are tormented eternally (but rather tormented with fire and brimstone). In fact, Biblically speaking, we know when and where and for how long this torment occurs:

And I looked, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. And I saw another angel flying directly overhead, having an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who reside on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people, And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud, “Send out your sickle and reap, because the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe!” And the one seated on the cloud swung his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.Revelation 14:1,6,15-16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:1,6,15-16&version=LEB

It occurs when The Lamb returns to stand on Mount Zion.

It occurs on the Earth

It occurs in the hour of His return to the Earth.

Do you believe that The Lamb and Holy angels are present in The Lake of Fire eternally?

Why would The Lamb and His Holy angels be present in the lake of fire?

Honestly I don’t know why you would ask this?

• He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12


If someone is sentenced to death, and is executed by lethal injection in the presence of the Judge , or warden and witnesses, are the witnesses also executed?



JLB

 

[chessman]

Why would The Lamb and His Holy angels be present in the lake of fire?

They wouldn’t. I’ll take that response as a ‘no’, neither the Lamb nor the Holy angels are present in the final punishment (the second death) of the wicked.

Honestly I don’t know why you would ask this?

Because the torment described in the Rev 14 passage specifically says that it occurs on the Earth in the presence of the Lamb and Holy angels. Thus, it’s NOT even a vision of the wicked’s final punishment (their destruction) that occurs away from the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels:

since it is righteous in the sight of God to pay back those who are afflicting you with affliction, and to you who are being afflicted, rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels, with burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,​

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:6-9&version=LEB

Rev 14 is about what it says it’s about,

If someone is sentenced to death, and is executed by lethal injection in the presence of the Judge , or warden and witnesses, are the witnesses also executed?

No.
Rev 14 describes what occurs prior to the resurrection of the dead and prior to the Final Judgment and the sentencing of the wicked to the Lake of Fire (their second death).

 

[JohnDB]

God is omnipresent...there is no where that God is not. A person cannot back up or travel far enough away to view God.

God is omnipotent...God created all power. All power comes from God. No one has any that God doesn't allow. Not one spark from a campfire exists without God's active support. Acquiescence isn't in God's activity range. (Omniscient)

Hell is supposed to be the absence of God...and a fiery torture.

Something isn't adding up.

 

[JLB]

They wouldn’t. I’ll take that response as a ‘no’, neither the Lamb nor the Holy angels are present in the final punishment (the second death) of the wicked.

Sorry, but that is not what I said, nor is it what you asked.

Do you believe that The Lamb and Holy angels are present in The Lake of Fire eternally?

The answer is no, the Lamb and the holy angels are not present in the lake of fire.


Here s my question.


If someone is sentenced to death, and is executed by lethal injection in the presence of the Judge , or warden and witnesses, are the witnesses also executed?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Because the torment described in the Rev 14 passage specifically says that it occurs on the Earth in the presence of the Lamb and Holy angels. Thus, it’s NOT even a vision of the wicked’s final punishment (their destruction) that occurs away from the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels:

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those[g] who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12


This is a warning to the saints and the inhabitants of the earth.


The final Judgement hasn’t taken place yet.


This passage doesn’t say the lake of fire is on earth.


No matter where it is, it involves torment day and night, in which the smoke of their torment ascends forever.

The torment produces the smoke.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Rev 14 describes what occurs prior to the resurrection of the dead and prior to the Final Judgment and the sentencing of the wicked to the Lake of Fire (their second death).

Revelation 14 is a warning, and describes the end result of those who take the mark of the beast, and worships him.


Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those[g] who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12




JLB

 

[chessman]

Here s my question.


If someone is sentenced to death, and is executed by lethal injection in the presence of the Judge , or warden and witnesses, are the witnesses also executed?

Asked and answered already.

No.

If Paul says;

with burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,​

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:8-9&version=LEB

Do you believe the penalty for those who do not know God is eternal destruction?

 

[billybalke]

Asked and answered already.


If Paul says;

with burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,​

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:8-9&version=LEB

Do you believe the penalty for those who do not know God is eternal destruction?

Rev.14:10,11

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC PROTESTANT JEW OR CALVINIST

 

[JLB]

If Paul says;
with burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:8-9&version=LEB

Do you believe the penalty for those who do not know God is eternal destruction?

That is what Paul says in the verse you quoted.

Eternal death, is the phrase I use.


destruction - Strong's G3639 - olethros

ruin, destroy, death

1. for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed

ὄλεθρος ólethros, ol'-eth-ros; from a primary ὄλλυμι óllymi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment:—destruction.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3639&t=KJV


Since spirit, is different than flesh, and seems to be eternal, then the destruction would then need to be continual, and everlasting, the way it is for the devil and his angels.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

again

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

• The fire is everlasting
• The punishment is everlasting
• The smoke of their torment is everlasting

JLB

 

[chessman]

Since spirit, is different than flesh, and seems to be eternal, then the destruction would then need to be continual, and everlasting, the way it is for the devil and his angels.

Do you believe your spirit was eternal in the past, either prior to Adam’s creation or past eternal prior to your flesh’s creation in your mother’s womb?

That is what Paul says in the verse you quoted.

Eternal death, is the phrase I use.

Why use a phrase Paul doesn’t?

ὄλεθρος ólethros, ol'-eth-ros; from a primary ὄλλυμι óllymi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment:—destruction.

Which verse of the Bible translates ólethros as i.e. “death”?

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you believe your spirit was eternal in the past, either prior to Adam’s creation or past eternal prior to your flesh’s creation in your mother’s womb?

That would be from Plato, not the Bible.