Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$905.00
Goal
$1,038.00
I was being sarcastic. I've had enough fire and brimstone preaching and I don't buy it. God is first and foremost a God of love. Perfect love. The whole of Scripture has hidden mysteries in it. We have more questions than answers. Anyone who thinks they "know" the answers is acting foolishly. We can have strong beliefs and we can have a high degree of confidence, but we can't know as God knows. That is because we have no way of fully knowing that we are knowing.

If I believe something is true, but I'm wrong, how will I know?

People often say, the Scripture is plain. But to that I say, nonsense. If it were so plain, you'd believe exactly what I believe. But you don't. I read the same Bible as you and come away with a different view. When I ask, why is that? I'm told, "You don't understand Scripture."

Funny, I was thinking the same thing of the other person!

We don't understand what we think we understand when it comes to the full Grace of God. And whatever Hell is, it's not burning sulfur to torture people for eternity. For what purpose? To appease an angry god? What? Like Moloch?

No, our God is not that way. I've got scriptures too that I can quote to support my view.

Fear of the Lord is not to be afraid of Him. It's to be in awe of Him for who He is. He is worthy. What would a perfect loving God whose justice is pure and to be celebrated do to creatures that reject Him?

For me personally, I believe it is a dangerous thing to leave what the scriptures plainly teach, in favor of our own emotional perspective, because we don’t like parts of the Bible.


I think we all believe the Bible when it says God loves us, or Jesus is the only way to God, but let the Bible say something we don’t like and all of a sudden, “we can’t know what the Bible really means”.

Brother, I love you, but this is a Bible Forum.


If we can’t teach people the truths of the Bible, then what are we doing here.



JLB
 
For me personally, I believe it is a dangerous thing to leave what the scriptures plainly teach, in favor of our own emotional perspective, because we don’t like parts of the Bible.


I think we all believe the Bible when it says God loves us, or Jesus is the only way to God, but let the Bible say something we don’t like and all of a sudden, “we can’t know what the Bible really means”.

Brother, I love you, but this is a Bible Forum.


If we can’t teach people the truths of the Bible, then what are we doing here.



JLB

We can teach truth. Just ask me, I’ll tell you what I believe, then everyone believe that. It will be the “plain” Scripture. I’ve had a lifetime of study so I must be right. Plus I’m smart too. And went to Bible college 4 years. And I read my Bible everyday. Plus study. And pray. And I know how to reason and think. A bonus. That and I’m not afraid to ask God hard questions. Trouble is, there are other Christians out there that want to correct me. Apparently they read their bible too. And see things differently. (But it’s so plain!).

Hell. There are 4 views ( maybe more) held by scholars with decades of training. One says left. The other right. The other up. The other down. All use the same verses and all use the “plain” meaning. All 4 claim to be right.

Yes we can know some things.
Some things we know in part.
Other things we cannot be fully sure. Only confident.
Still, we seek more answers. Which is good.

Btw, I have ALL the answers. Most are probably wrong. But I do have answers.
 
Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

It's as simple as separating darkness from light. Eternal (opposite of anything God), goes to where the devil and his angels live for eternity. It's not God being mean, it is just how eternal life works eternally. Light has to be separated from darkness.....otherwise it would just be earth all over. And God is JUST as other people have stated, so no one is pulling anything over on him and people aren't just going to hell because he feels like it.
 
Here's a quote that pretty much is my view. I know there are other views but I cannot get past a loving God eternally "torturing" creatures he created in His image. I've long ago rejected this idea of God. His love is perfect and this sort of thing is not perfect love by any stretch.

Papa Zoom,

The late Clark Pinnock's views on hell have come under intense criticism from some scholars in the evangelical community. See: Clark Pinnock on Eternal Torment & Millard Erickson on Clark Pinnock by Peter Lumpkins. Of Pinnock's view, Erickson stated:

“It is one thing to speak emphatically about one’s sense of injustice and moral outrage over the idea of God’s condemning persons to hell. If, however, one is going to describe sending persons to endless punishment as ‘cruelty and vindictiveness,’ and a God who would do so as ‘more nearly like Satan than God,’ and ‘a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz,’ he had better be very certain he is correct. For if he is wrong, he is guilty of blasphemy. A wiser course of action would be restraint in one’s statements, just in case he might be wrong” [both Pinnock and Erickson's quotes are taken from " A Traditionalist Response To John Stott’s Arguments For Annihilationism", Robert A. Peterson, JETS 37:4 (Dec 1994].​

I consider that hell/Hades/Gehenna are real and this will be a conscious, frightful place. But I can't conclude about its exact nature for these reasons:

I accept that the biblical writers used metaphorical and not literal language. My main reasons for such a view are:
  • Hell/Hades could not be represented as literal fire because it is also described as a place of darkness (see Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; 2 Peter 2:17; Jude 1:13). Fire and darkness are mutually exclusive terms so hell's description cannot be literal.
  • Let's use Jude as an example. He described the after-life as 'eternal fire' (Jude 1:7) but that is contrasted with 'utter darkness' (Jude 1:13). For the angels, Jude writes of 'gloomy darkness' (Jude 1:6). Again, literal fire and literal darkness would be contradictory - from my human perspective.
  • This issue is made knotty by the language of the 'lake of fire' (Rev 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8. This hardly conforms with the 'blackest darkness'.
  • John the Baptist and Jesus also describe hell as 'fire' (Matt 3:10; 25:41) but also as 'darkness' (Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:
  • Also Matt 25:41 describes hell as a place for the devil and his angels. They are spirit beings. How is it possible for fire to work on non-physical beings?
Therefore, I accept a metaphorical understanding of hell/Hades/Gehenna. It does involve conscious suffering/torment (cf Luke 16:23-24) , but its nature is unknown to me because of the language used. Evidence from outside the NT also supports this perspective.

See fire and darkness appearing together in Jewish writings such as Qumran (1QS 2:8; 4:13), 1 Enoch 103:7; 2 Enoch 10:2-3; Jerusalem Talmud, Shekalim 6:1, 49d. These writings also speak of the bodies of the wicked that are rotting with worms and maggots (Judith 16:17; Sirach (Ben Sira) 7:17, cf Isa 66:24). It was ‘hot as fire and cold as ice’ replacing eternal torment in 2 Enoch 14:20(12) [from my article, Is there literal fire in hell?]

Oz
 
Last edited:
A finite creature, who could have lived a basically good life but didn't know Jesus, is going to die one day and be resurrected to a new body - one that can never die. That way, a good and loving god can throw that person into a fire to burn and be tormented day and night forever. A sliver of life on earth and the sins that come with it, can only receive proper justice to burn eternally.

Papa,

Are you 100% sure that this is the view of hell and God that you reject?

Oz
 
God is first and foremost a God of love.

Papa,

Would you please demonstrate this from Scripture?

If I believe something is true, but I'm wrong, how will I know?

If you are talking about being wrong about what the Bible teaches, become a Berean and follow what the Bereans had to do when they heard Paul preaching (Acts 17:11 NIV). We need to do the same on CFnet with your teaching and mine. Aren't we debating that in this thread - not too successfully?

Also, learning some basic principles of interpretation from a hermeneutics course (e.g. How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, Gordon Fee & Douglas Stuart) could help considerably.

Being wrong about how to get to my uncle's retirement village (which I visited today) may be corrected by a GPS or Referdex.

Oz
 
I see the difficulty being that we keep forgetting who God is relative to who we are and we paint God into an image of what we want Him to be rather than accepting Him as He is. We come into this argument with the idea that we are born perfect and that we are called to live perfect or else, but I don't believe that is quite accurate. We are born with a sin nature and "condemned already" (John 3:18). But God, in His infinite wisdom, "will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape," (1 Corinthians 10:13) and has done so in the One Jesus Christ. We must choose whether to accept His gift of life or deny it and face eternal death.

Did God create Adam and then give him a pile of rules and then instruct him to obey or else? No. It wasn't necessary. Adam just trusted God from the get-go. It wasn't until he gave in to Satan's temptation that sin entered and from that point forward we have all been condemned but God has provided that way out.
 
I like Karl Barth too.

Papa,

Do you approve of Barth's view that there are errors in Scripture and these don't inhibit the 'inspired' nature of Scripture?

See: What Should Evangelicals Make of Karl Barth? - The Gospel Coalition

barth-e1428641577698-560x365.jpg



Oz
 

Attachments

  • 1523965251506.png
    1523965251506.png
    457 KB · Views: 2
Last edited:
Hell. There are 4 views ( maybe more) held by scholars with decades of training. One says left. The other right. The other up. The other down. All use the same verses and all use the “plain” meaning. All 4 claim to be right.

Which is why I don’t read commentary.

I’m responsible to the Lord for the truth He teaches me, through hearing His voice and through the scriptures.

I learned early on in my walk with Him that the “popular” view held by those who are held in high esteem, may not be right.
(See Pre-trib rapture doctrine)

The Lord will hold each of us responsible for the truth we both, know and walk in.

I won’t have the luxury of blaming brother so and so, because he taught me false doctrine, and I spread it to others, when we stand before His throne on the Day of Judgement.

Study to show ourselves approved.

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 2 Timothy 4:1-4


  • For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine but according to their own desires.

  • they will turn their ears away from the truth



JLB
 
Which is why I don’t read commentary.

JLB,

Why, then, did God give the gift of teachers to the church? (see 1 Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11-12; Rom 12:7)

Some of the most thorough teachers of Scripture can be found in commentaries. I'm thinking of some of those on my shelves: R C H Lenski, Leon Morris, D A Carson, Gordon Fee, Frank Gaebelein, Keil & Delitzsch, etc.

[edited]

Oz
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Papa,

Do you believe this statement as absolutely true?

Oz

It can't be since I said it. It's just an opinion from someone who recognizes he could be wrong. Hell is a real place. Banishment is suffering enough. I'm just saying that my moral intuition recognizes that there is something wrong with the idea that people "burn" in torture and torment for an eternity. That can't be as in my pea brain it's not consistent with perfect love.
 
Papa,

Are you 100% sure that this is the view of hell and God that you reject?

Oz

The God I embrace is the one Jesus showed us. And the perfect example of a loving God is the Prodigal Son story. I reject the turn or burn view that I heard growing up and that still is passed around today.
 
Papa,

Would you please demonstrate this from Scripture?



If you are talking about being wrong about what the Bible teaches, become a Berean and follow what the Bereans had to do when they heard Paul preaching (Acts 17:11 NIV). We need to do the same on CFnet with your teaching and mine. Aren't we debating that in this thread - not too successfully?

Also, learning some basic principles of interpretation from a hermeneutics course (e.g. How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, Gordon Fee & Douglas Stuart) could help considerably.

Being wrong about how to get to my uncle's retirement village (which I visited today) may be corrected by a GPS or Referdex.

Oz

1 John 4:8

I have that book. I should read it finally. BTW, I fully agree with your first response to me. I'm not a "follower" of Pinnock. I just quoted one thing he said. But I do have a book of his that we studied in college and it was quite good. Are you familiar with this book?
The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment, Third Edition
by Edward William Fudge, Richard Bauckham (Kindle Edition)

Also BTW, I'm totally not an open theist.

It's funny because I just made what I thought was a simple comment that I rejected the idea of a eternal torment in a hell fire and all of a sudden I'm an open theist (because I quoted one?) But I do appreciate your responses to me. I may dust off that book finally.
 
Papa,

Do you approve of Barth's view that there are errors in Scripture and these don't inhibit the 'inspired' nature of Scripture?

See: What Should Evangelicals Make of Karl Barth? - The Gospel Coalition

barth-e1428641577698-560x365.jpg



Oz

I haven't studied him that deeply. I just think he has a thing or two that he can teach us. Luther said some dumb things as did Calvin. I won't write you off if you say something I find completely off base.
As for Barth and what he's said about errors in Scripture, I'd have to see exactly what he's said and in the context of how he said it.

But I don't follow Barth, I follow Jesus.
 
Which is why I don’t read commentary.
And yet here you are offering your commentary. Am I then expected to read it? This is what we do all the time here, we offer our commentary to others for examination.

I’m responsible to the Lord for the truth He teaches me, through hearing His voice and through the scriptures.
exactly and we learn from each other by sharing our lives and talking about the things that are on our minds

I learned early on in my walk with Him that the “popular” view held by those who are held in high esteem, may not be right.
(See Pre-trib rapture doctrine)
If you don't read the ideas of others, the only teacher you have is yourself. I choose to read a variety of authors, along side my Bible, because I love to read stuff and I like thinking about stuff.

The Lord will hold each of us responsible for the truth we both, know and walk in.
totally true and I agree fully

I won’t have the luxury of blaming brother so and so, because he taught me false doctrine, and I spread it to others, when we stand before His throne on the Day of Judgement.

Study to show ourselves approved.

Which is why I read books. Because I want to know what others have to say about something. Like the nature of hell for example. Otherwise I just have my early life teaching and myself. And if commentary isn't helpful, we may as well close this entire forum down. It's what we do all day long: make commentary

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 2 Timothy 4:1-4


  • For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine but according to their own desires.
  • they will turn their ears away from the truth
I'm not sure why you include these. I'm hardly doing that.



JLB[/QUOTE]
 
BTW, I don't want to be "corrected." I want to be challenged and be made to think. Exactly what OzSpen did is what should happen here. Ask questions, offer ideas, be respectful. This is what's missing here in these forums. I care about truth just as much as the next guy. I care about knowing God in every way He can be known. Don't make assumptions just because someone quotes someone you don't like. I might quote Michael Shumer some day. Ya never know.
 
Where are people and angels "tormented with fire and brimstone"?
Wherever the Text says they are tormented. Such as exampled by Edom’s and Sodom’s destruction.

The problem with your interpretation of The Rev 14 passage is that this particular torment Text says that it’s neither in Heaven nor in Hell but rather is an “hour of judgment” reaped upon those “residing on the Earth”.

And I saw another angel flying directly overhead, having an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who reside on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people, saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship the one who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water!”
Revelation 14:6-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:6-7&version=LEB

And BTW, the Text says this torment is done in the presence of Holy angels (not unholy angels) and The Lamb.
 
Back
Top