Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

[JLB]

And yet here you are offering your commentary.

Please point out the commentary in the post you are referring to.


Thanks JLB

 

[JLB]

exactly and we learn from each other by sharing our lives and talking about the things that are on our minds

That’s not how I learn.


JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

Please point out the commentary in the post you are referring to.


Thanks JLB

JLB, all your posts have some sort of commentary. You make comments. I'll highlight one of them. It's not a slam, it's an observation.

 

[Papa Zoom]

That’s not how I learn.

JLB

Yes it is actually. That's how God designed all of us. If you went to school or even home school, you learned exactly that way.

It's not the only way we learn things, but it's a huge part of how we learn and grow.

 

[Papa Zoom]

For me personally, I believe it is a dangerous thing to leave what the scriptures plainly teach, in favor of our own emotional perspective, because we don’t like parts of the Bible.


I think we all believe the Bible when it says God loves us, or Jesus is the only way to God, but let the Bible say something we don’t like and all of a sudden, “we can’t know what the Bible really means”.

This is commentary. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's comments from you.

I’m responsible to the Lord for the truth He teaches me, through hearing His voice and through the scriptures.

I learned early on in my walk with Him that the “popular” view held by those who are held in high esteem, may not be right.
(See Pre-trib rapture doctrine)

The Lord will hold each of us responsible for the truth we both, know and walk in.

I won’t have the luxury of blaming brother so and so, because he taught me false doctrine, and I spread it to others, when we stand before His throne on the Day of Judgement.

All of the above is commentary. All comments by you. Not saying it's wrong or unbiblical. But it is commentary.

 

[Razeontherock]

The God I embrace is the one Jesus showed us. And the perfect example of a loving God is the Prodigal Son story. I reject the turn or burn view that I heard growing up and that still is passed around today.

"Love me or else"

Stockholm syndrome?

 

[Razeontherock]

BTW, I don't want to be "corrected." I want to be challenged and be made to think. Exactly what OzSpen did is what should happen here. Ask questions, offer ideas, be respectful. This is what's missing here in these forums. I care about truth just as much as the next guy. I care about knowing God in every way He can be known. Don't make assumptions just because someone quotes someone you don't like. I might quote Michael Shumer some day. Ya never know.

Uplifting vs tearing down. That's exactly what I was thinking, and then out it comes in the staff memo

 

[JohnDB]

Discussion is coming in...
Arguing is out.

Sharing what you believe and why you believe in a particular theology is one thing...
Telling someone that they are stupid, not a Christian, don't follow scriptures, or any other number of ugly things I've seen posted here.... and it's going to be difficult for you here

 

[Papa Zoom]

Uplifting vs tearing down. That's exactly what I was thinking, and then out it comes in the staff memo

It's funny to me that over the years I've heard a diversity of thoughts on different theological issues. All correct and from the Holy Spirit. :/

 

[Papa Zoom]

Regarding torment: As any sufferer of depression what torment is. They will likely tell you that at their lowest point in depression, when all seems dark, when thoughts of death and being alone loom over head, when God goes silent, when Satan assault with accusations, that's torment. When there's no way out, when all is painful, you seek relief but none is forthcoming, when the thoughts racing around in your head, all dark and threatening, won't shut up, that is torment.

Being seperated from God for eternity is torment.

The very idea of ceasing to exist is tormenting.

Dante's Inferno hasn't got nothing on depression experiences!

 

[Razeontherock]

It's funny to me that over the years I've heard a diversity of thoughts on different theological issues. All correct and from the Holy Spirit. :/

Many unbelievers of different stripes point to that as a weakness of Christianity. I think it's a strength, and what God had in mind with Joseph's coat of many colors

With each believer having a personal relationship with God, we each bring our own "color" to a topic. Scripture speaks of God weaving this into a tapestry. The needles used to do this work refers to suffering.

We see all these elements here ...

 

[Papa Zoom]

Many unbelievers of different stripes point to that as a weakness of Christianity. I think it's a strength, and what God had in mind with Joseph's coat of many colors

With each believer having a personal relationship with God, we each bring our own "color" to a topic. Scripture speaks of God weaving this into a tapestry. The needles used to do this work refers to suffering.

We see all these elements here ...

Which doesn't mean there are different varieties of truth just that our understandings vary. And maybe, hidden among the varied ideas, is a hint at what is actually true.

I've been to Bible studies where other believers prefaced their comments with "The Holy Spirit led me into this truth." followed by that "truth." Of course, that leaves no room for questioning.

Does the HS guide us into truth? Yes of course. But we have to do some heavy lifting ourselves.

Everybody (nearly everyone - leaving room here for exceptions) got their ideas of Hell from the Bible. Yet the Bible has but one truth about Hell, not many opposing truths. So we have a problem when we discuss such things. I believe Hell is a banishment from the presence of God. A separation of darkness and light if you will. The terribleness of Hell is given to us in the awful imagery given to us in the NT. It's not depicting a literal description but the description is valid as if it were literal.

It's not as if, "Oh good, we won't burn in a vat of lava for eternity!"

No, it will be far worse.

 

[chessman]

It's funny to me that over the years I've heard a diversity of thoughts on different theological issues.

I've had my own diversity of thoughts on this subject over the years (much less diversity with other's). I use to think Matt 10:28 and Luke 12:4-6, etc. were hyperbole (an ideal threat, so to speak) and that God wasn't literally able to destroy both the body and the soul of the wicked in Hell. I've changed my thoughts in the last few years based on a deeper study of the all the relevant Texts and reading the 'arguments' from the differing views to determine which are more consistently using exegesis versus preconceived eisegesis.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I've had my own diversity of thoughts on this subject over the years (much less diversity with other's). I use to think Matt 10:28 and Luke 12:4-6, etc. were hyperbole (an ideal threat, so to speak) and that God wasn't literally able to destroy both the body and the soul of the wicked in Hell. I've changed my thoughts in the last few years based on a deeper study of the all the relevant Texts and reading the 'arguments' from the differing views to determine which are more consistently using exegesis versus preconceived eisegesis.

Those are definitely two powerful verses that speak of ultimate total destruction of the wicked. I plan on studying around those two verses more in the coming months.

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm just saying that my moral intuition recognizes that there is something wrong with the idea that people "burn" in torture and torment for an eternity. That can't be as in my pea brain it's not consistent with perfect love.

I believe you logic is good.
It is a question for which there is a great lack of answers.
I would like to offer the following answer from the Orthodox church:

Thoughts about hell from "The River of Fire" by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS

Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father's arms, but if he does not love him, his father's loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why, when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head.

"I say," writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, "that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it"

---------------------

In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!

“Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the everlasting inner fire of hatred,” says the Lord,” because I was thirsty for your love and you did not give it to Me, I was hungry for your blessedness and you did not offer it to Me, I was imprisoned in My human nature and you did not come to visit Me in My church; you are free to go where your wicked desire wishes, away from Me, in the torturing hatred of your hearts which is foreign to My loving heart which knows no hatred for anyone. Depart freely from love to the everlasting torture of hate, unknown and foreign to Me and to those who are with Me, but prepared by freedom for the devil, from the days I created My free, rational creatures. But wherever you go in the darkness of your hating hearts, My love will follow you like a river of fire, because no matter what your heart has chosen, you are and you will eternally continue to be, My children.“

Hope that makes sense.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

To my question "Where are people and angels "tormented with fire and brimstone"? "
You replied:

Wherever the Text says they are tormented.

The TEXT says:
Rev 14:9-11
"Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

I think that is the third time I have pointed that out to you. Yup, 3rd time.

iakov the fool

 

[OzSpen]

It can't be since I said it. It's just an opinion from someone who recognizes he could be wrong. Hell is a real place. Banishment is suffering enough. I'm just saying that my moral intuition recognizes that there is something wrong with the idea that people "burn" in torture and torment for an eternity. That can't be as in my pea brain it's not consistent with perfect love.

Thank you for clarifying your position.

I find the metaphorical interpretation and being agnostic about the real nature of this eternal, conscious punishment is the closest I can get to understanding eternal destruction.

 

[OzSpen]

I haven't studied him that deeply. I just think he has a thing or two that he can teach us. Luther said some dumb things as did Calvin. I won't write you off if you say something I find completely off base.
As for Barth and what he's said about errors in Scripture, I'd have to see exactly what he's said and in the context of how he said it.

But I don't follow Barth, I follow Jesus.

Thanks for the clarification, Papa.

My PhD supervisor tried to convince me to take an aspect of Karl Barth to investigate. I chose Jesus Seminar heterodox promoter, John Dominic Crossan, and his view of the resurrection of Jesus being an apparition.

Oz

 

[Papa Zoom]

Thanks for the clarification, Papa.

My PhD supervisor tried to convince me to take an aspect of Karl Barth to investigate. I chose Jesus Seminar heterodox promoter, John Dominic Crossan, and his view of the resurrection of Jesus being an apparition.

Oz

I was given a couple of books Barth has written and I'm under obligation to read them (cuz all my books must be read eventually...all 800 on my kindle and 300+ in my library. I learned a lesson tho: Put all wanted books on the Amazon wanted list, then delete them a year later. It works.

Meanwhile, I read a lot of books that others recommend but I do like to read. Not novels. Philosophy, apologetics, theology, boring stuff like that. I'd read some science but mostly theology and apologetics. Currently reading John Walton's book, "The Lost World Of Adam and Eve." Interesting stuff from a man who studies the cultures of the times. Great insights IMO. Plus things I've thought but never said he covers. Current chapter:
Proposition 20 It Is Not Essential That All People Descended from Adam and Eve

Walton, John H.. The Lost World of Adam and Eve: Genesis 2-3 and the Human Origins Debate (p. 181). InterVarsity Press. Kindle Edition.

Yeah, a friend recommend reading it. I have a few others by him. Just finished Jesus and the Undoing of Adam by Baxter Kruger. Interesting but not my favorite author. He repeats himself a lot and I get lost. :/ Also I love anything by Randal Rauser and am reading Faith lacking Understanding - a journey through the Apostles Creed and its major teachings. Mostly covers where we lack understanding (like in understanding the Trinity). Rauser is a theologian but writes in a style that's easy to follow. His book, "Finding God In The Shack" is superb IMHO. ;) I read the Shack because a friend read it and was making a big deal of it. So I read it. It was okay. But Rauser's book on the Shack is a stand alone must read. Mostly because it demonstrated how to honestly tackle reviewing a book for all it's good points and bad - in fairness and honesty. The good outweighed the bad by a mile from my perspective.

 

[chessman]

To my question "Where are people and angels "tormented with fire and brimstone"? "
You replied:
The TEXT says:
Rev 14:9-11
"Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

I think that is the third time I have pointed that out to you. Yup, 3rd time.

iakov the fool

And every time I’ve read the Scripture (red bold and black you have posted, it has not said this torment is in Hell. It still doesn’t (explicitly or implicitly).

In fact, if you actually read the context, it does tells us all explicitly where The Lamb and these Holy angels are present. The Lamb is explicitly said to be “standing on Mount Zion” and the Holy angels are flying “directly above”. Maybe you have missed it in my past posts so I will bold red it for you. The proof:

And I looked, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. And I saw another angel flying directly overhead, having an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who reside on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people,​

Revelation 14:1,6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:1,6&version=LEB