Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

[OzSpen]

The God I embrace is the one Jesus showed us. And the perfect example of a loving God is the Prodigal Son story. I reject the turn or burn view that I heard growing up and that still is passed around today.

Papa,

I don't read any teaching on hell in the prodigal son story in Luke 15:11–32 (NIRV).

Could you here be favouring the God of love. Some of the other actions by God are:

• 'Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord' (Rom 12:19 NIV).
• 'for our "God is a consuming fire"' (Heb 12:29 NIV)

What happens when we concentrate on one attribute of God when he is the holistic God? No attribute operates independently of the nature of God and all of his attributes.

'When we speak of the attributes of God, we are referring to those qualities of God that constitute what he is, the very characteristics of his nature' (Millard Erickson, Christian Theology, 2nd edn, 1998:291).

Oz

 

[Papa Zoom]

Papa,

I don't read any teaching on hell in the prodigal son story in Luke 15:11–32 (NIRV).

Could you here be favouring the God of love. Some of the other actions by God are:

• 'Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord' (Rom 12:19 NIV).
• 'for our "God is a consuming fire"' (Heb 12:29 NIV)

What happens when we concentrate on one attribute of God when he is the holistic God? No attribute operates independently of the nature of God and all of his attributes.

'When we speak of the attributes of God, we are referring to those qualities of God that constitute what he is, the very characteristics of his nature' (Millard Erickson, Christian Theology, 2nd edn, 1998:291).

Oz

I can't fully explain it but I think God's "wrath" is birthed in His perfect love. God chastises those He loves. But I don't believe He's a God of "anger" like we understand our anger. His "anger" is sourced from His loving nature.

Before the creation of anything, to whom could God be angry? To whom could God show wrath? His was and existence of perfect trinitarian harmony of relationship between the Father, Son, and Spirit. Perfect love.

I'm still working on how to think about this.

 

[Jim Parker]

And every time I’ve read the Scripture (red bold and black you have posted, it has not said this torment is in Hell. It still doesn’t (explicitly or implicitly).

The scripture was not given in response to whether or not it was in hell.
It was given in response to your statement that the torment did not take place in the presence of the Lamb.
The scripture explicitly and clearly says it DOES take place in the presence of the Lamb.
That's the second time I have clarified that for you.

IS there something in my post you do not understand?

 

[PeterJens]

My dilemma

When I meet people I like to think the best about them and assume that what I know and feel
represents what is truly going on. I know I am wrong, and am just building a nice impression
of what is around me.

I realise meeting God will be a shock to most, who have no clue who He really is. The pharisees
called Him of satan, and ignored everything about Him. And there is the problem. If we have
the veil taken away and our whole being rejects that which is love and life, what is left?

A place of destruction, emptiness, punishment and torment. It is hard to see that the lost who
we interact with everyday, are doomed to this place. It is heart breaking. But it is also unavoidable
if the veil will be lifted and the rebellion will be complete, and the reality be justified. In this world
things are often so hazy and unclear, the evil and its consequences are often obscured and hidden.

If I can begin to grasp how to walk and be in Jesus, maybe the flow of blessing can be unstoppable
.
To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.
He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death
Revelation 21:6-8

 

[Papa Zoom]

To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.
He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death
Revelation 21:6-8

annihilation Conditional Immortality.

 

[Jim Parker]

annihilation Conditional Immortality.

Neither are supported by scripture.

 

[chessman]

The scripture was not given in response to whether or not it was in hell.

we were not talking about Jesus being in the tomb but whether Jesus (The Lamb) was present in Hell and I provided you with the reference from Revelation which explicitly states that he was.

 

[OzSpen]

Neither are supported by scripture.

Jim,

Why don't you take a verse or two used by people who promote annihilation and conditional immortality and show that the verses have a different meaning?

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,
Why don't you take a verse or two used by people who promote annihilation and conditional immortality and show that the verses have a different meaning?
Oz

I haven't been following that notion in the thread but I remember seeing a reference to
Mal 4:1-3. For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the LORD of hosts, That will leave them neither root nor branch.
But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves. You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this, Says the LORD of hosts.
And, indeed, there are other references to the Lord consuming His enemies with fire.

However, that picture does not include the resurrection in which all of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1Cor 15:52-53)

He who is immortal and incorruptible cannot be annihilated. It is impossible to annihilate him who is indestructible or to kill him who is immortal.

That is the problem with people using their "proof texts"; it is not a proof of anything if it is not taken with the entire revelation of God in the scriptures.

jim

 

[brujaq]

Acts 12:21-23

I think Herod got off pretty light if there's no eternal torment in hell .. What's the point of the great white throne of judgment if it's true ..

 

[Papa Zoom]

Neither are supported by scripture.

Depends on who is interpreting the Bible. I think a strong case can be made. Not saying it's true but that a strong case can be made. It's a view thats out there. Some find the arguments compelling and through provoking.

I say believe what you feel compelled to believe. It's not that important to me what others believe on the matter of Hell except if they try to change my way of seeing the Bible on the matter.

I don't know what the nature of Hell is actually and I'm open to hear any idea that makes sense.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Acts 12:21-23

I think Herod got off pretty light if there's no eternal torment in hell .. What's the point of the great white throne of judgment if it's true ..

depends on one's definition of "torment."

 

[brujaq]

depends on one's definition of "torment."

Torment is ongoing suffering imo .. How do you see it PZ ?

 

[Papa Zoom]

The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment, Third Edition Kindle Edition

JOHN STOTT, London, England, U.K.: Tentatively holds to the view set forth in this book.
reflects the true Biblical teaching about the eternal destiny of the wicked
Although I had never made an extensive study of the biblical doctrine of hell, Fudge’s book forced me to study and evaluate my own views on this issue. . . After comparing the teachings of the New Testament with what I knew about what the Old Testament teaches, it is obvious to me that what The Fire That Consumes teaches reflects the true Biblical teaching about the eternal destiny of the wicked.
CLAUDE MARIOTTINI, Professor of Old Testament, Northern Seminary, Lombard (Chicago), Illinois.
A very strong case for rethinking
A very strong case for rethinking the notion of the eternal torment of all the lost.
COLIN BROWN, Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, Calif.
the fruit of patient Bible study
While this subject is one on which there is no unanimity among evangelical Christians, it is at the same time one on which they have often engaged in fierce polemic. What is called for, rather, is the fellowship of patient Bible study, the fruit of which Mr. Fudge presents here.
F.F. BRUCE (Deceased), University of Manchester, England.


there are a lot more but I may buy this book too. It looks interesting

 

[Papa Zoom]

Torment is ongoing suffering imo .. How do you see it PZ ?

What kind is what I'm asking. There are many ways to suffer. I suffer from pain in my shoulder after a bad fall. It's ongoing as it is still healing. I'm not tormented though. But if God were forcing that on me for some sin payback, it would be torment. But one I could live with. So torment is a matter of degree and kind.

 

[chessman]

However, that picture does not include the resurrection in which all of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1Cor 15:52-53)

There is no Text which says “all of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible”.

That is the problem with people using their "proof texts"; it is not a proof of anything if it is not taken with the entire revelation of God in the scriptures.

Is 1 Cor 15:52-53 proof to you that “all of mankind will be raised immortal”?

Here’s what it says, which is what it proves:

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.​

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:50-53&version=ESV

And Paul even tells us brothers what that means for “us”:

When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.​

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:54-57&version=ESV

Do the wicked get victory?
Does ‘all mankind’, to use your interpretation, get victory?

 

[WIP]

I realise meeting God will be a shock to most, who have no clue who He really is.

I believe not only most but all will be shocked.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV

 

[Jim Parker]

the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable

It's right there in front of you.
You quoted it.
"THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED"
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
Rev 20:11-13
Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

ALL the dead are risen.

 

[OzSpen]

1 John 4:8

I have that book. I should read it finally. BTW, I fully agree with your first response to me. I'm not a "follower" of Pinnock. I just quoted one thing he said. But I do have a book of his that we studied in college and it was quite good. Are you familiar with this book?
The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment, Third Edition
by Edward William Fudge, Richard Bauckham (Kindle Edition)

Also BTW, I'm totally not an open theist.

It's funny because I just made what I thought was a simple comment that I rejected the idea of a eternal torment in a hell fire and all of a sudden I'm an open theist (because I quoted one?) But I do appreciate your responses to me. I may dust off that book finally.

Papa,

In my view, you were a victim of a red herring fallacy when the quote you gave from Pinnock on annihilation was turned into a comment about Pinnock's unorthodox views on open theism. It was a change of topic, but looked like having a connection - Pinnock - when it didn't.

For heaven's sake, your comment was about Pinnock on hell and not other theology by Pinnock.

I'm familiar with Edward Fudge's original edition of The Fire that Consumes, which is an exposition on annihilationism, but I haven't read it in its entirety - naughty boy I am! I should get it and read. It's now in a 3rd edition. I expected Fudge to promote annihilationism to coincide with the fact he is a Seventh Day Adventist. The SDAs support annihilationism as a tenant of faith. Ellen G White, founding prophetess of the SDAs, taught: 'The final, complete, annihilation of the wicked at the close of the millennium' (source).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

1 John 4:8

Papa,

In #239 you stated that 'God is first and foremost a God of love'. I asked for scriptural support.

Now you provide 1 John 4:8 as that biblical support. What does this verse state? 'Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love' (NIRV).

This does not state that God is first and foremost a God of love. What does it state? 'God is love'. Nothing is said about his attribute of love being 'foremost'. God's love is only one of his attributes. How about His attributes of omnipresence, omniscience (knowing Himself and all other things), omnipotence, immutability, holiness, righteousness/justice, goodness, benevolence, mercy, grace and truth?

Oz