Is futurism dying

Discussion in 'Preterism Discussions' started by thethinker, Aug 23, 2013.

  1. thethinker

    thethinker Member

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    Jesus PLAINLY said that all would come to pass upon "this generation" (Jesus' contemporaries).

    Btw, the Greek in Revelation 1:7 does NOT imply that every human would see Christ return. It literally reads thus,

    "Every eye shall see Him, that is, those who pierced Him...."

    The verse is saying that every eye of those who pierced Him would see Him. This implies that they would be ALIVE at His coming. Take Caiaphas the high priest for example. Jesus told Caiaphas that he would see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power AND coming in the clouds.

    But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power AND coming on the clouds of heaven. Matthew 26:64 ESV

    Note: Jesus said, "From now on you will see...."

    Two observations come from this,

    1. Caiaphas would see Christ come in the clouds in the same way he would see Christ sitting on the right hand of power. Therefore, Caiaphas was not to see Christ come physically because he did not see Christ sitting at God's right hand physically.

    2. Caiaphas would live to see Christ come. This is true for two reasons:

    a. Caiaphas was to see Christ sitting on the right hand of power. Paul said that after Christ comes He no longer sits at God's right hand.

    b. According to Premillennialists the wicked are resurrected AFTER the so called millennium expires. So how could Caiaphas see Christ come if he is still dead in the grave for a thousand years AFTER Christ comes?

    Therefore, Caiaphas saw Christ sitting on the right hand of power AND coming in the clouds in his lifetime.

    I have tried to see the futurist view, and it just doesn't fit. :)

    Futurism is dying in case you didn't know.
     
  2. Allen Wynne

    Allen Wynne Member

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    Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

    Preterism is equilvalent to the Flat Earth Society.
     
  3. reba

    reba Staff Member Administrator

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    Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

    As to full pretersim i would agree to my best knowledge unless something has changed there are no full preterist members here.
     
  4. Allen Wynne

    Allen Wynne Member

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    Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

    Right.
    If something doesn't fit, then figure out a way to make it fit.
    That's partial preterism.

    To all preterist, how does what you believe edify the church?
    How does what you believe glorify Jesus Christ?
    Tell me so I can learn.
     
  5. reba

    reba Staff Member Administrator

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    Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

    I would ask back how does it not?

    Is see much of what folks call preterism as taking Jesus at His word... When he said this generation.
    No where is Scripture do we find God destroying the Temple or the City or sending His people into captivity with out a good warning... I see/read Matt etc as that warning. of the destruction of 70 AD

    IT seems to me it is edifying to be able to take Him at his word... and once again we dont have to agree one day will will know .. I disagree with the Scofield/darby dispensational ( i have been told dispy is rude so i am trying to not use it... gotta love PC ) i was raised in but i do not disrespect my brothers and sisters who believe so....
     
  6. reba

    reba Staff Member Administrator

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    Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

    pre post mid amil post mil :) 3 1/2 years of trib nope 7 ..... no salvation with out baptism yes no yes no tongues NO tongues YES

    I have not read one theology or eschatology that your statement does not 'fit' :)
     
  7. thethinker

    thethinker Member

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    Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

    I gave scriptural exegesis. It would be nice if you interacted with it.
     
  8. thethinker

    thethinker Member

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    Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

    First, Preterism gives hope to the people of God. Paul promised the Thessalonians that that Christ would return from heaven to give them relief from their persecutors (2 Thessalonians 1:3-8). The futurists say that Christ did not return from heaven. If Christ did not return to THEM as promised, then how we be sure that He will keep His promises to us? If Christ broke His promise to the Thessalonian Christians, then we have no assurance of hope. But if Christ did indeed return as Paul promised and as Preterism affirms, then our hope has a solid basis.

    Second, Preterism gives a solid defense for the credibility of the bible and shuts the mouths of the bible's critics. I have been on athiest forums where they devour futurists who refuse to align their eschatology with historical, archaeological and scientific facts. But when I give the Preterist interpretation of prophecy which is in accord with the bible and all the sciences the athiests have no answer. All they can say is "how convenient."

    Note how this athiest below tore up a futurist who insisted that the tribes of Israel still exist today. The futurist made a silly statement saying that God knows who they are and the athiest replied,

    The athiest's last statement in bold is true. God judged Israel by dispersing them and making their house "desolate" just as Jesus said. He caused their blood to mix with the blood of ALL the races. We are ALL one blood today!

    Yet the futurist just buries his head in the sand and says, "I believe the bible." NO! The futurist does NOT believe the bible. And he abandons the sciences as well as common sense to defend his interpretations. The futurist believes his interpretation of the bible only. He transfers all God's promises to Israel into our future when Paul put them in his own "present time" (Romans 11:5). God dispersed them and caused them to mix which means that they ceased to be a distinct race. Preterism deals with these things. The futurists just sweeps them under the rug. God'spromises to Israel had to be fulfilled in Paul's time or else God failed to keep His promise because it is too late now. Israel as a distinct race ceased to exist long ago. The promises God made to Israel were for the remnant in apostolic times. God kept His word.

    This is so simple to understand. Thus it is futurism that may be likened to the Flat Earth Society. Be advised that the athiests are watching you guys tout "I believe the bible," while dismissing the evidences of the various sciences when they contradict your interpretations.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2013
  9. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

    When did this happen?

    70 AD?

    Titus went on to become the emperor of Rome as a conquering hero.

    The resurrection of the dead is at the end of the age, when Christ returns to gather His people.



    JLB
     
  10. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

    The Olivet discourse which is Matthew 24:3 -25:46, there is no mention of the destruction of the city and sanctuary.

    So any verse or phrase mentioned has no context of the events of 70 AD.


    JLB
     
  11. Sinthesis

    Sinthesis Member

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    Could you tell me where this is from?
     
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  12. JLB

    JLB Member

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  13. Sinthesis

    Sinthesis Member

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    That is Peter, and it really doesn't address the issue.
     
  14. Sinthesis

    Sinthesis Member

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    I never would have thought it was something you had posted.:naughty:rolling
     
  15. Deborah13

    Deborah13 Member

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    Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

    This is not the most knowledgeable statement I have ever heard. If that Christian could not respond to the bold statement above, then they don't know their Bible, OR I'm completely off and don't either.
    Jesus was a Jew, and Jesus had at least one Gentile in His bloodline. "Ruth". = Obed = Jesse = David, ..... Jesus.

    Also, where is this info. coming from that all Jews are mixed with other bloodlines. That seems to me to be a presumptuous statement.
    "your house will be left to you desolate" is that the proof text for the above statement?
     
  16. thethinker

    thethinker Member

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    David said that Christ would sit at God's right hand UNTIL all His enemies are made His footstool. Paul said that He must reign UNTIL all His enemies are put under His feet, and that at that time the Son Himself becomes subject in the Kingdom. Paul said that this happens at His second coming (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

    The Premillennialists have it backwards. They say that Christ is subject now but will become King at His second coming. But Paul said that He reigns now and will become subject at His coming. Albert Barnes says that this is the "common interpretation of all times."

    Now Jesus told Caiaphas that from now on he would see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven. Yet the futurists explain this away saying that Caiaphas will see these things when he is resurrected from the dead. But the futurist explanation can be easily disproven.

    1. The expression "from now on" means "from this time onward." So Caiaphas was to see Christ both sitting at God's right hand AND coming in the clouds in his lifetime.

    2. According to Premillennialism the wicked dead are resurrected AFTER the millennium. So how can Caiaphas see Christ sitting on the right hand of God and coming in the clouds when he is dead in the grave for a whole thousand years AFTER Christ comes?

    3. Paul said that Christ's reign ENDS at His second coming. He said that Christ's coming is "the END" when the Son "shall have delivered the kingdom to the Father" and "Himself becomes subject."

    Again, Barnes said that this is the "common interpretation of all times." This is the Postmillenniall view btw.

    Sorry for the delayed reply.
     
  17. thethinker

    thethinker Member

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    TO All,

    Revelation 1:7 in Young's Literal Translation,

    Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

    The word "even" means "that is."

    Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every that is, those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

    The verse requires ONLY that all who pierced Him see Him. Others may have seen Him. The Jewish historian Joesphus and the Gentile Historian Tacticus both report that some others did see Him.

    The verse does not require that every human see Him. It requires ONLY that all who pierced Him see Him. Paul saw Christ on the road to Damascus. Paul said that he was an eyewitness to Christ's resurrection (1 Cor. 15:1-8). Yet the others who were with Paul did NOT see Christ.
     
  18. turnorburn

    turnorburn Member

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    thethinker said
    Jesus said
    Is this what your referring to?

    tob
     
  19. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Like in the future.
     
  20. reba

    reba Staff Member Administrator

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    Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

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