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Is futurism dying

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#1
Allenwynne beat me to it. There are two events. One event, no one knows the day or hour and we are admonished all throughout the NT to watch and be ready. The 2nd event is almost spelled out to the day and will be easily seen when all the prophecies take place and Jerusalem will be surrounded. One event, no one knows the day or hour, He will be in the air and only His own will se Him. The 2nd event, every eye will see Him and Jesus Himself will come to earth and destroy the enemy outside of Jerusalem. Then the 1000 year reign where Israel will be THE super power on earth, borders will be moved to as promised and life will be good. After that Satan be loosed a little while, then the judgment day.
Jesus PLAINLY said that all would come to pass upon "this generation" (Jesus' contemporaries).

Btw, the Greek in Revelation 1:7 does NOT imply that every human would see Christ return. It literally reads thus,

"Every eye shall see Him, that is, those who pierced Him...."

The verse is saying that every eye of those who pierced Him would see Him. This implies that they would be ALIVE at His coming. Take Caiaphas the high priest for example. Jesus told Caiaphas that he would see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power AND coming in the clouds.

But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power AND coming on the clouds of heaven. Matthew 26:64 ESV

Note: Jesus said, "From now on you will see...."

Two observations come from this,

1. Caiaphas would see Christ come in the clouds in the same way he would see Christ sitting on the right hand of power. Therefore, Caiaphas was not to see Christ come physically because he did not see Christ sitting at God's right hand physically.

2. Caiaphas would live to see Christ come. This is true for two reasons:

a. Caiaphas was to see Christ sitting on the right hand of power. Paul said that after Christ comes He no longer sits at God's right hand.

b. According to Premillennialists the wicked are resurrected AFTER the so called millennium expires. So how could Caiaphas see Christ come if he is still dead in the grave for a thousand years AFTER Christ comes?

Therefore, Caiaphas saw Christ sitting on the right hand of power AND coming in the clouds in his lifetime.

I have tried and tried to see the preterist view, and it just doesn't fit.
I have tried to see the futurist view, and it just doesn't fit. :)

Futurism is dying in case you didn't know.
 
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#2
Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

Preterism is equilvalent to the Flat Earth Society.
 
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#3
Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

Preterism is equilvalent to the Flat Earth Society.
As to full pretersim i would agree to my best knowledge unless something has changed there are no full preterist members here.
 
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#4
Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

Preterism is equilvalent to the Flat Earth Society.
As to full pretersim i would agree to my best knowledge unless something has changed there are no full preterist members here.
Right.
If something doesn't fit, then figure out a way to make it fit.
That's partial preterism.

To all preterist, how does what you believe edify the church?
How does what you believe glorify Jesus Christ?
Tell me so I can learn.
 
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#5
Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

I would ask back how does it not?

Is see much of what folks call preterism as taking Jesus at His word... When he said this generation.
No where is Scripture do we find God destroying the Temple or the City or sending His people into captivity with out a good warning... I see/read Matt etc as that warning. of the destruction of 70 AD

IT seems to me it is edifying to be able to take Him at his word... and once again we dont have to agree one day will will know .. I disagree with the Scofield/darby dispensational ( i have been told dispy is rude so i am trying to not use it... gotta love PC ) i was raised in but i do not disrespect my brothers and sisters who believe so....
 
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#6
Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

Right. If something doesn't fit, then figure out a way to make it fit. .
pre post mid amil post mil :) 3 1/2 years of trib nope 7 ..... no salvation with out baptism yes no yes no tongues NO tongues YES

I have not read one theology or eschatology that your statement does not 'fit' :)
 
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#8
Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

To all preterist, how does what you believe edify the church?
First, Preterism gives hope to the people of God. Paul promised the Thessalonians that that Christ would return from heaven to give them relief from their persecutors (2 Thessalonians 1:3-8). The futurists say that Christ did not return from heaven. If Christ did not return to THEM as promised, then how we be sure that He will keep His promises to us? If Christ broke His promise to the Thessalonian Christians, then we have no assurance of hope. But if Christ did indeed return as Paul promised and as Preterism affirms, then our hope has a solid basis.

Second, Preterism gives a solid defense for the credibility of the bible and shuts the mouths of the bible's critics. I have been on athiest forums where they devour futurists who refuse to align their eschatology with historical, archaeological and scientific facts. But when I give the Preterist interpretation of prophecy which is in accord with the bible and all the sciences the athiests have no answer. All they can say is "how convenient."

Note how this athiest below tore up a futurist who insisted that the tribes of Israel still exist today. The futurist made a silly statement saying that God knows who they are and the athiest replied,

Even God could not figure out the lineage if no such lineage exists! If the tribes have been interbreeding with Gentiles for over two thousand years, then their genes are mixed with the entire planetary genome, and the entire planetary genome is mixed with them. It's like a drop of ink in water - it diffuses and mixes with the whole and cannot be separated. This is simple to understand. Suppose a Jew married a Gentile. Are the children Jewish? Half Jewish? Then suppose they all married Gentiles. What are the grandchildren? A quarter Jewish? And so on - their genes are soon mixed with the entire genepool of the planet, and everyone becomes 1/bazzillionth Jewish. There are no "Gentiles" left since everyone can trace their lineage back to a Jew. And likewise there are no Jews, since every Jew could find a Gentile in their lineage.
The athiest's last statement in bold is true. God judged Israel by dispersing them and making their house "desolate" just as Jesus said. He caused their blood to mix with the blood of ALL the races. We are ALL one blood today!

Yet the futurist just buries his head in the sand and says, "I believe the bible." NO! The futurist does NOT believe the bible. And he abandons the sciences as well as common sense to defend his interpretations. The futurist believes his interpretation of the bible only. He transfers all God's promises to Israel into our future when Paul put them in his own "present time" (Romans 11:5). God dispersed them and caused them to mix which means that they ceased to be a distinct race. Preterism deals with these things. The futurists just sweeps them under the rug. God'spromises to Israel had to be fulfilled in Paul's time or else God failed to keep His promise because it is too late now. Israel as a distinct race ceased to exist long ago. The promises God made to Israel were for the remnant in apostolic times. God kept His word.

This is so simple to understand. Thus it is futurism that may be likened to the Flat Earth Society. Be advised that the athiests are watching you guys tout "I believe the bible," while dismissing the evidences of the various sciences when they contradict your interpretations.
 
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JLB

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#9
Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

Paul promised the Thessalonians that that Christ would return from heaven to give them relief from their persecutors
When did this happen?

70 AD?

Titus went on to become the emperor of Rome as a conquering hero.

The resurrection of the dead is at the end of the age, when Christ returns to gather His people.



JLB
 

JLB

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#10
Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

Second, Prterism gives a solid defense for the credibility of the bible and shuts the mouths of the bible's critics.
The Olivet discourse which is Matthew 24:3 -25:46, there is no mention of the destruction of the city and sanctuary.

So any verse or phrase mentioned has no context of the events of 70 AD.


JLB
 

JLB

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#12
Paul said that after Christ comes He no longer sits at God's right hand.
Could you tell me where this is from?

19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:9-21
 
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#13
Paul said that after Christ comes He no longer sits at God's right hand.
Could you tell me where this is from?

19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:9-21
That is Peter, and it really doesn't address the issue.
 
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#15
Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

There are no "Gentiles" left since everyone can trace their lineage back to a Jew. And likewise there are no Jews, since every Jew could find a Gentile in their lineage.

The athiest's last statement in bold is true. God judged Israel by dispersing them and making their house "desolate" just as Jesus said. He caused their blood to mix with the blood of ALL the races. We are ALL one blood today!
This is not the most knowledgeable statement I have ever heard. If that Christian could not respond to the bold statement above, then they don't know their Bible, OR I'm completely off and don't either.
Jesus was a Jew, and Jesus had at least one Gentile in His bloodline. "Ruth". = Obed = Jesse = David, ..... Jesus.

Also, where is this info. coming from that all Jews are mixed with other bloodlines. That seems to me to be a presumptuous statement.
"your house will be left to you desolate" is that the proof text for the above statement?
 
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#16
Paul said that after Christ comes He no longer sits at God's right hand.
Could you tell me where this is from?
David said that Christ would sit at God's right hand UNTIL all His enemies are made His footstool. Paul said that He must reign UNTIL all His enemies are put under His feet, and that at that time the Son Himself becomes subject in the Kingdom. Paul said that this happens at His second coming (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

The Premillennialists have it backwards. They say that Christ is subject now but will become King at His second coming. But Paul said that He reigns now and will become subject at His coming. Albert Barnes says that this is the "common interpretation of all times."

Now Jesus told Caiaphas that from now on he would see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven. Yet the futurists explain this away saying that Caiaphas will see these things when he is resurrected from the dead. But the futurist explanation can be easily disproven.

1. The expression "from now on" means "from this time onward." So Caiaphas was to see Christ both sitting at God's right hand AND coming in the clouds in his lifetime.

2. According to Premillennialism the wicked dead are resurrected AFTER the millennium. So how can Caiaphas see Christ sitting on the right hand of God and coming in the clouds when he is dead in the grave for a whole thousand years AFTER Christ comes?

3. Paul said that Christ's reign ENDS at His second coming. He said that Christ's coming is "the END" when the Son "shall have delivered the kingdom to the Father" and "Himself becomes subject."

Again, Barnes said that this is the "common interpretation of all times." This is the Postmillenniall view btw.

Sorry for the delayed reply.
 
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#17
TO All,

Revelation 1:7 in Young's Literal Translation,

Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

The word "even" means "that is."

Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every that is, those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

The verse requires ONLY that all who pierced Him see Him. Others may have seen Him. The Jewish historian Joesphus and the Gentile Historian Tacticus both report that some others did see Him.

The verse does not require that every human see Him. It requires ONLY that all who pierced Him see Him. Paul saw Christ on the road to Damascus. Paul said that he was an eyewitness to Christ's resurrection (1 Cor. 15:1-8). Yet the others who were with Paul did NOT see Christ.
 
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#18
thethinker said
2. According to Premillennialism the wicked dead are resurrected AFTER the millennium. So how can Caiaphas see Christ sitting on the right hand of God and coming in the clouds when he is dead in the grave for a whole thousand years AFTER Christ comes?
Jesus said
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Is this what your referring to?

tob