Is futurism dying

Discussion in 'Preterism Discussions' started by thethinker, Aug 23, 2013.

  1. Sinthesis

    Sinthesis Member

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    Read Matthew 1:17 again. It does not say a generation is 40yrs, and it does not say 14 generations are 560yrs. The word 'year' doesn't even appear in the verse.

    To scripturally prove within this context that 14 generations does not equal 560yrs is easy:

    From Abraham to David are fourteen generations - Mat 1:17
    Abraham died at 175yrs old - Gen 25:7
    Abraham had Isaac at 100yrs old - Gen 21:5
    Isaac had Jacob at 60yrs old - Gen 25:26
    Jacob entered Egypt at 130yrs old - Gen 47:9
    Therefore, Jacob entered Egypt 115yrs after Abraham died
    Therefore, Jacob entered Egypt 290yrs after Abraham was born
    Jacob/Israel was in Egypt 430yrs - Exd 12:40
    Therefore, Israel left Egypt 545yrs after Abraham died
    Therefore, Israel left Egypt 720yrs after Abraham was born
    David began to reign at 30yrs old - 2Sa 5:4
    David reigned 40yrs - 2Sa 5:4
    Solomon's 4th year of reign was the 480th since Israel left Egypt - 1Ki 6:1
    Therefore, David was born 406yrs after Israel left Egypt
    Therefore, David died 476yrs after Israel left Egypt
    Therefore, there are 951yrs from Abraham's death until David's birth (14gen Min)
    Therefore, there are 1196yrs from Abraham's birth until David's death (14gen Max)
    Therefore, the 14 generations from Abraham to David would each average 67.93yrs minimum and 85.43yrs maximum
    :readbible
     
  2. JLB

    JLB Member

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    And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.


    The law of Moses was given at Sinai 430 years after the Covenant of Abraham.

    How long from the Covenant of Sinai to the Birth of King David?


    JLB
     
  3. Rev33

    Rev33 Member

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    Why did Paul say it would it overthrow the faith of some?

    Wouldn't it be easy enough to point to the unopened graves and say "see... no rezzy yet"?

    Isn't it that easy to refute today?
    Who's faith could be overthrown by something supposedly so easy to disprove?

    Hint: What damning, faith-destroying error did Paul continuously have to address in his epistles?

    Hint #2:Its the same error Paul is accusing Hymenaeus of.
     
  4. TRUTH over TRADITION

    TRUTH over TRADITION Member

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    Because we are reading the text some 2000 years after it was written, the word 'will' should be a word we are careful with applying to us. At the time of Paul's writing the return of Jesus and subsequent resurrection had not occurred, but that was then. According to the scriptures, the return of the Lord was to occur during the lifetime of those to whom Paul addressed, therefore, applying Paul's word to us is fallous, ignores the scriptural context, and is flat out misleading.



    This statement seems to be based on several assumptions about what would happen to the world and the people in it when and after Jesus returned as he said he would back in 1st century Palestine.
     
  5. TRUTH over TRADITION

    TRUTH over TRADITION Member

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    And you are so sure of this because?
     
  6. Sinthesis

    Sinthesis Member

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    What is your point?

    No, it was not. The law of Moses was given at Sinai 430yrs after Jacob/Israel went into Egypt. Exd 12:40

    The answer is in my previous post. Did you read it? Maybe you didn't know that the covenant of sinai was given in the first year after Israel left Egypt - Exd 19:1 , so the answer is 406yrs.
     
  7. JLB

    JLB Member

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    I read your post.

    Here is what the scripture says -

    17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. Galatians 3:17

    The law was 430 years after the Covenant.

    Plain and simple.

    You stated many things and placed a "scripture tag", after each opinion.

    You actually stated no scripture!

    Galatians 3:17 states that the law came 430 years after the Covenant.

    Again, How long was the birth of King David after the Law was given on Sinai?

    Please answer the question using scripture, not your opinion with a "scripture tag", but a written out scripture.

    If you can't, then your statement that says To scripturally prove within this context that 14 generations does not equal 560 yrs is easy: is in fact a FALSE STATEMENT!


    JLB
     
  8. Destructus86

    Destructus86 Member

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    YES...thankfully Futurism is dying. Even old Mr Jack Van Impe has said that. (Allthough he sees it as a bad thing) I think it's great to see it happening...it means we are getting back to what early Christians believed about the scripture instead of this made-up hogwash deception.
     
  9. JLB

    JLB Member

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    9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11

    ...they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

    They literally watched, as a literal cloud, literally received Him of of their sight.


    Notice the words that were given to them by the angel.

    ...will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.

    Jesus taught us this very thing!

    30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    ... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven.

    He left while they watched Him in the clouds...He will come in like manner.

    ...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds.


    Plain clear instructions as to how He will return.

    ...when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:10

    Every eye will see Him!

    All will see Him.

    The Apostles believed what Jesus said, LITERALLY!

    So do I.
     
  10. Destructus86

    Destructus86 Member

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    You keep bringing up this verse without going into the historical context behind Matthew 24. All evidence points to Matt 24 taking place around 70ad. Which means you have taken your favorite verse out of context completely.
     
  11. JLB

    JLB Member

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    What evidence?

    There is not one single word in the Olivet Discourse that mentions the destruction of the city and sanctuary. NOT One.

    4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    Starting in Matthew 24:4 all the way through Matthew 25:46 ALL RED LETTERS.

    Not one single solitary word or phrase mentioned by Jesus about the destruction of the Temple or the city.

    CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT...

    There is ZERO CONTEXT to support any claim that Jesus was referring to 70 AD.

    Nothing what so ever happened in 70 AD that impacts The Church.

    Nothing.


    JLB
     
  12. DaveRC

    DaveRC Member

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    But is He coming in like manner before or after the cloud visibly "swallowed" Him?
     
  13. JLB

    JLB Member

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    He is coming with the clouds of heaven in power and great glory.

    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Matthew 24:29-31

    and again

    9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11


    JLB
     
  14. reba

    reba Staff Member Administrator

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    "and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Sense He is gathering His elect from one end of heaven to the other .. the elect are already in heaven correct?
     
  15. DaveRC

    DaveRC Member

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    Where have we seen the apocalyptic language in Matthew 24:29-30 before?

    Oh yeah on past fulfilled judgments on Babylon in Isaiah 13:13-17, on Edom in Isaiah 34:4-5, and on Egypt in Ezekiel 32:7-11.

    And where have we seen God coming on clouds of glory? Oh yeah on the judgment of Egypt in Isaiah 19:1-4 which saw its fulfillment in very next chapter in Isaiah 20.

    Where have we seen God come down out of heaven before? Oh yeah in the deliverance of David in 2 Samuel 22:1-16 and King Hezekiah and Jerusalem in Micah 1:1-9 (God slew the army camp of King Sennacherib).

    This language is a literary form, a literary device, a metaphoric description of a nation in panic under siege and conquested by another nation sent by God to perform His judgment. What nation did Jesus send to Jerusalem?

    Also the sign in heaven, in the Greek connotates celestial heaven a la third heaven in fact Paul uses that very same Greek word used in Matthew 24:30 for heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2!

    Do you know what the sign of heaven really is? The destruction of the Temple, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the end of the Jewish age and Old Covenant Israel. The sign of Christ`s coming in clouds of Glory, the sign of Christ`s deity and His Kingly judgment of Old Covenant Israel.

    Jesus is speaking about the fulfilment of Daniel 2:44 and Daniel 7:13-14, the Son of Man receives His everlasting Kingdom during the reign of the Kingdom of Iron and clay, the Fourth Beast Kingdom, namely Rome.

    Well, I got news for you, Rome is dead. See the writing on the wall.

    By the way, to properly calcalute a biblical generation, the Babylon Captivity occurred between 587-581 BCE divide this date by 14 repesenting the generations between the Captivity and the birth of Christ.

    The earliest date comes to 41.9 years.

    The later date comes to 41.5 years.

    Also, Hebrews 3:8-10 tells us how long a biblical generation is.. its 40 years!
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  16. DaveRC

    DaveRC Member

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    Other prophetic language explained





    A. Clouds

    1. Clouds: Indicate Divine Power: PS 104:3-4
      Presence: Exo.16:10; 19:9; 34:5, Lev.16:2, Num.11:25, Job 22:12, Psalm 68:32-35
      Salvation: Psalm 18:9-12
      Judgment: Isa.19:1, Psalm 104:1-3, Joel 2:1-2
    B. Send Angels MT 24:31
    1. Angel means messenger
      • Hebrew: "malak": angel(s)-110x; messenger(s)-100x; ambassadors-2x; envoys-1x
      • Greek: "Aggellos": Angel(s)-89x; messenger(s)-7x
    2. Usage of angel in NT:
      • Created beings superior to man: Ax 23:8; Heb 1:7,14
      • John the baptist: Mt 11:10; Mk 1:2; Lk 7:27
      • Messengers of John the Baptist: Lk 7:24
      • Messengers of Christ: Lk 9:52
      • Jewish spies: Jas 2:25
    C. Mt 24:31 Gathering the of elect from four winds:
    1. This is probably the great commission: Christians preaching gospel to whole world, "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" Mt 28:18
    D. Trumpet: MT 24:31
    1. Trumpets Signaled Start Of Battle: Num 10:1-10
    2. Same Language Used In Zeph 1:16
     
  17. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Zechariah 14 is what Jesus was referring to when He taught His disciples privately from the very Mt of Olives He would return to.

    Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
    And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
    2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
    The city shall be taken,
    The houses rifled,
    And the women ravished.
    Half of the city shall go into captivity,
    But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

    3 Then the Lord will go forth
    And fight against those nations,
    As He fights in the day of battle.
    4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
    Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
    And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,

    From east to west,
    Making a very large valley;
    Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
    And half of it toward the south.
    5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
    For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
    Yes, you shall flee
    As you fled from the earthquake
    In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

    Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.

    6 It shall come to pass in that day
    That there will be no light;
    The lights will diminish.

    7 It shall be one day
    Which is known to the Lord—
    Neither day nor night.
    But at evening time it shall happen
    That it will be light.

    8 And in that day it shall be
    That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
    Half of them toward the eastern sea
    And half of them toward the western sea;
    In both summer and winter it shall occur.
    9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
    In that day it shall be—
    “The Lord is one,”
    And His name one.
    Zechariah 14:1-9


    “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
    Matthew 25:31-32


    In that Day we will admire Him, and see Him on His throne.

    For now, we do not see Him, but we believe by faith.

    6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9



    JLB
     
  18. JLB

    JLB Member

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    And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

    Yes the elect He is gathering from heaven, are in heaven [whose bodies will be resurrected], and the elect that are on earth are still on earth [who will be raptured].


    This is called the gathering, in which He will gather His people from heaven and earth together.

    17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17



    JLB
     
  19. reba

    reba Staff Member Administrator

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    the elect are in the winds and in heaven. now you have added the elect on earth?
     
  20. JLB

    JLB Member

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    And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27



    JLB
     

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