Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[JLB]

Continued from the other thread about Romans 7:

Chopper said -
You are right in saying that if someone who disregards his salvation, he has lost it. After all, there will be a great apostasy in 2 Thess 2. I have no problem with that because he wasn't saved in the first place....I have a hard time believing that all the dispersed Jews were Christians.

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15


James plainly says when we have been approved, we will receive the crown of Life.

However in this life we must learn to avoid, and endure temptation, that leads to sin.

... and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Apostasy is not the topic here in James warning, but sin. Not just a mistake here and there, but sin that is neglected to the point it becomes full grown, and ends up bringing death to the Christian who is drawn away by their desires.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Continued to shorten the post:

Paul says it this way -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Examine Paul's warning, and the language he uses.

....of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things...

Again, like the example James gives, about full grown sin, Paul says I have told you over and over, those who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Practice; If I rescue someone from drowning and perform CPR on them and save their life, this doesn't mean I "practice" medicine.

A Doctor practices medicine, it's his life's work. He didn't just stumble into it either. he spent years giving himself over to this driving passion of being a doctor.

Likewise, those who become saved and Baptized, and filled with the Spirit, and go to Church and read the Bible, but then they begin to neglect the things of salvation, and spend time going to the wrong places and consorting with the wrong people, and are tempted and drawn away by their desires, and began practicing the works of the flesh, and like Peter says are overcome... they have become ensnared again by their own desires, as the present themselves as slaves of sin...


13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sinleading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

• you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

and again

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:6

again

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;

JLB

 

[JLB]

Chopper said
I have a hard time believing that all the dispersed Jews were Christians.
How so?

They were dispersed from the persecution of unbelieving Jews, led by Saul of Tarsus.

• How else was the Lord going to get them out to begin the work He began with Abraham.

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying,“In you all the nations shall be blessed. Galatians 3:8

• The Lord was setting the stage for the Gospel to be spread beyond Jerusalem to other parts of the nation, including Samara and eventually the Gentiles.

Now Saul was consenting to his death.

At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial,and made great lamentation over him.

3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.

4 Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word.5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them.6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city. Acts 8:1-8



JLB

 

[Chopper]

I understand what you are stating my friend. I don't disagree with anything you have stated. I'd be a fool to disagree with the written Word of God. I'd also be a fool to be someone whom you dislike.

Here is my position. In every group of people who call themselves believers in Jesus the Son of God, our hope is that they are all genuine and will be rewarded by Jesus to enter His Kingdom. All the Scripture that you posted is absolutely true. Here's the thing. You and I would not be true to the Scriptures if we believed that everyone who makes a profession of faith is genuine in the long run, even if they have works of Salvation to begin with.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

My point is, not all who believe in Jesus are genuine believers. They might act like it for a while but will eventually sink back into a life of sin that you have noted and not enter the Kingdom no matter what great Christian endeavors they did when they thought they were saved and others thought the same thing such as the following....

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now, in the writings of the Apostle John, while in exile on the island, he wrote about sinning genuine believers....
1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

For the genuine Believer in Jesus of whom Jesus the Son of God has committed Salvation to, might sink into sin. Just as James tells us,
James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins....
It is our responsibility to rebuke this person and lead them back to the Truth. If not, God Himself will end this person's life on earth before he/she goes to far. That is the "sin unto death" that is God end's this life from the earth. They are still saved and will enter the Kingdom but only as the Apostle Paul states....

1Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This my old friend is what I believe. I'm in hopes that it is agreeably with your theology.

 

[JLB]

In every group of people who call themselves believers in Jesus the Son of God, our hope is that they are all genuine and will be rewarded by Jesus to enter His Kingdom.

Amen.

Here's the thing. You and I would not be true to the Scriptures if we believed that everyone who makes a profession of faith is genuine in the long run, even if they have works of Salvation to begin with.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

My point is, not all who believe in Jesus are genuine believers. They might act like it for a while but will eventually sink back into a life of sin that you have noted and not enter the Kingdom no matter what great Christian endeavors they did when they thought they were saved and others thought the same thing such as the following....

Ok. Not all who profess to be believers, are Genuine believers.

For the genuine Believer in Jesus of whom Jesus the Son of God has committed Salvation to, might sink into sin. Just as James tells us,
James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins....
It is our responsibility to rebuke this person and lead them back to the Truth. If not, God Himself will end this person's life on earth before he/she goes to far. That is the "sin unto death" that is God end's this life from the earth. They are still saved and will enter the Kingdom but only as the Apostle Paul states....

It is our responsibility, to turn such a one back to the truth.

It is my sincere hope, that you will consider the language here in James 5.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

It is the work of love, to patiently work with people who have turned from the truth, for love covers a multitude of sins.

• If someone has wandered from the truth, then they have been "careless" with the truth.

This Greek word lends itself, as to a person who has been lead astray [by false teaching], or has been careless with God's word, and has mishandled it.

IE; they have been careless, allowing themselves to be led astray.

wander in the NKJV, or err, in the KJV -

planaō - G4105 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4105&t=KJV

1. to cause to stray, to lead astray, lead aside from the right way
   1. to go astray, wander, roam about
2. metaph.
   
   1. to lead away from the truth, to lead into error, to deceive
   2. to be led into error
   3. to be led aside from the path of virtue, to go astray, sin
   4. to sever or fall away from the truth
      1. of heretics
   5. to be led away into error and sin

I point this out, because this, to me, is a different scenario, than someone who refuses to believe the truth.

• Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner...

James teaches us that a brother who has walked in the truth for awhile, then has wandered from the truth, has become a sinner again.

• ...let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

James teaches us plainly, that a brother who wanders from the truth, and has once again become a sinner, can indeed be turned back to the way of truth, so that his soul will not be lost unto death, ie: eternal death.



JLB

 

[Chopper]

Amen.



Ok. Not all who profess to be believers, are Genuine believers.




It is our responsibility, to turn such a one back to the truth.

It is my sincere hope, that you will consider the language here in James 5.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

It is the work of love, to patiently work with people who have turned from the truth, for love covers a multitude of sins.

• If someone has wandered from the truth, then they have been "careless" with the truth.

This Greek word lends itself, as to a person who has been lead astray [by false teaching], or has been careless with God's word, and has mishandled it.

IE; they have been careless, allowing themselves to be led astray.

wander in the NKJV, or err, in the KJV -

planaō - G4105 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4105&t=KJV

1. to cause to stray, to lead astray, lead aside from the right way
   1. to go astray, wander, roam about
2. metaph.
   1. to lead away from the truth, to lead into error, to deceive
   2. to be led into error
   3. to be led aside from the path of virtue, to go astray, sin
   4. to sever or fall away from the truth
      1. of heretics
   5. to be led away into error and sin

I point this out, because this, to me, is a different scenario, than someone who refuses to believe the truth.

• Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner...

James teaches us that a brother who has walked in the truth for awhile, then has wandered from the truth, has become a sinner again.

• ...let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

James teaches us plainly, that a brother who wanders from the truth, and has once again become a sinner, can indeed be turned back to the way of truth, so that his soul will not be lost unto death, ie: eternal death.



JLB

I don't disagree with anything. What you say about the sinner in James 5:20 is absolutely true. This person was lost and bound for the Lake of Fire. UNLESS you or I lead him to the Truth and genuine Salvation.

 

[JLB]

UNLESS you or I lead him to the Truth and genuine Salvation.

Well, if that is what you believe, then I will respect your position.

However, it is my position, from James as well as Peter, and Jesus, that a person can indeed believe and be saved by faith, then later:

• wander from the truth. A person who was saved and walking in the truth, then they wandered from the truth.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• after escaping the pollutions of the world, and knowing the way of righteousness, they again entangled and overcome.

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

• be disconnected from the Vine, in whom they were in. They were in Him. Then they were cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Abide means: Remain connected in relationship. ie; a branch must remain connected in relationship to the Vine, in order to receive the life the Vine provides. The branch does not have life independently from the Vine, as the branch depends on the Vine for life.




JLB

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Well, if that is what you believe, then I will respect your position.

However, it is my position, from James as well as Peter, and Jesus, that a person can indeed believe and be saved by faith, then later:

• wander from the truth. A person who was saved and walking in the truth, then they wandered from the truth.

• after escaping the pollutions of the world, and knowing the way of righteousness, they again entangled and overcome.

• be disconnected from the Vine, in whom they were in. They were in Him. Then they were cast into the fire and burned.

Abide means: Remain connected in relationship. ie; a branch must remain connected in relationship to the Vine, in order to receive the life the Vine provides. The branch does not have life independently from the Vine, as the branch depends on the Vine for life.




JLB

I just read the subject: Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation, and I'am in somewhat of an agreement about what you all is saying, we are in full agreement with the scripture says in John 15:all verses, and in James 1:22.

 

[mutzrein]

I guess, that the phrase 'true Christian' would indicate that the person asking the question considers that there are also un-true Christians. How would you then define a 'true Christian'?

 

[Hospes]

How would you then define a 'true Christian'?

I believe a person's will is not a determining factor of their salvation, which leads me to believe a "true Christian" is a person he gave the right to become a child of God, who was born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13) Furthermore, I believe God maintains the true Christian in the same way he saved the true Christian. I used to say, regarding my salvation, "If I walked in the door, I can walk out." I no longer believe this. I now see he decidedly influenced my will to walk in and now decidedly influences my will to not walk out.

In all this, we must be cautious; ultimately deciding who is a true Christian is reserved for God and it is a usurpation of his divine role for us to endeavor to do it.

 

[JLB]

I believe a person's will is not a determining factor of their salvation, which leads me to believe a "true Christian" is a person he gave the right to become a child of God, who was born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13) Furthermore, I believe God maintains the true Christian in the same way he saved the true Christian. I used to say, regarding my salvation, "If I walked in the door, I can walk out." I no longer believe this. I now see he decidedly influenced my will to walk in and now decidedly influences my will to not walk out.

In all this, we must be cautious; ultimately deciding who is a true Christian is reserved for God and it is a usurpation of his divine role for us to endeavor to do it.

For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. Mark 3:35 KJV

and again

33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Mark 8:33-36 KJV

• whosoever is a reference to anyone, not predestined ones.
• whosoever will, is the will of whosoever and is independent of God's will.
• We have to choose to do God's will.

JLB

 

[mutzrein]

I don’t believe it is possible to ‘do’ the will of God unless one is child of God, ie born of the Spirit of God. So for me, man does not ‘do’ the will of God, in order to ‘be’ saved or ‘be’ in relationship with God. He is born of God and therefore the fruit of his life is to do the will of God.

 

[JLB]

I don’t believe it is possible to ‘do’ the will of God unless one is child of God, ie born of the Spirit of God. So for me, man does not ‘do’ the will of God, in order to ‘be’ saved or ‘be’ in relationship with God. He is born of God and therefore the fruit of his life is to do the will of God.

Thank you for sharing your opinion with us.



JLB

 

[ezra]

"Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation."

it depends on who you ask and that is a serious answer
i tend to agree with chopper . i have studied this out for years, i do believe in the full assurance of my salvation . i have never preached one can or can not. to many tend to use Grace as a reason one can sin. i probably have a different view than most. i feel a true Christian will stay with it. i do also believe that man is a free moral agent. can we walk away and be damned as back to being lost again.? i don,t want to find out i also see your way in scripture . i tend lean toward no we can,t But i am not the judge and when i sin .i confess and ask forgiveness its the best i can do. throw my self at the throne of Grace plead guilty ask for mercy . i pray none of us will find out if we can. lets focus on staying attached to the true vine

 

[Hospes]

For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. Mark 3:35 KJV

and again

33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Mark 8:33-36 KJV

• whosoever is a reference to anyone, not predestined ones.
• whosoever will, is the will of whosoever and is independent of God's will.
• We have to choose to do God's will.

I agree with your entire post except where I underlined. The scripture you have given is absolutely true. Let me address what I think is possibly behind the disagreement.

I believe God is as able to direct our will as he is able to still a storm. Even I can influence your will. For instance, if I told you I'd give you $5 to live in a tent for a year, you'd probably tell me "No". But if I offered you a million dollars to live in a tent for a year, you very well may change your answer to "Yes". Did I influence your will? Of course. Am I forcing you to do something? No, I am not. This analogy isn't perfect, but hopefully it helps you understand that if I get you to see, and conditionally offer you, something of immense value, you will change your current plans and pursue what I have shown you. Are there any passages stating an unbeliever's will is "independent of God's will", i.e. God does not work to influence the will of an unregenerate sinner so that their will changes? (It sure felt like he influenced mine!) I know he influences the will of his redeemed: "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13 ESV) Also, note God seems to have no hesitation in causing people walk in obedience: "And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." (Ezekiel 36:27) Finally, in John 1:13, it says a born-again believer is "not born of the will of man, but of God."

For the record, I am profoundly grateful for God's ongoing changing of my will. If left on my own, I am utterly lost. I want to grow in my seeing his infinite value so that it completely captivates my will so that I will not wander away from his glorious graces. You see, my heart's cry - when I am in my best moments - is to not have "free will", but to have my will bend to the slightest touch of his will.

Hope this helps.

 

[JLB]

i confess and ask forgiveness its the best i can do. throw my self at the throne of Grace plead guilty ask for mercy . i pray none of us will find out if we can. lets focus on staying attached to the true vine

Amen!!!

Let's focus on Him, and set our minds on things above. He loves us more than we will ever know.

That is where my confidence is, knowing that He is for us, not against us. We can come to Him with any weakness or sin, or shortcoming.

He is ready and willing to walk with us through anything, if we just come to Him knowing He wants us, and sent His Son to die for us, that we can be with Him for eternity.

However, I also refuse to water down the truth of His word, and make excuses knowing that He will not be partial to me, just because I'm His favorite, [at least that's how He makes me feel].

I know for sure He won't be partial with you, though He loves as His own son.

But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:27



JLB

 

[JLB]

"for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

Thank God for that.

But please know how many times I have asked Him, for this very thing, that I may have His grace to do His will.

I exercised my will, to choose to do His will, and for Him to have His way in my life in all things.

He will not violate your will.


JLB

 

[reba]

Exo_4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

 

[ezra]

Amen!!!

Let's focus on Him, and set our minds on things above. He loves us more than we will ever know.

That is where my confidence is, knowing that He is for us, not against us. We can come to Him with any weakness or sin, or shortcoming.

He is ready and willing to walk with us through anything, if we just come to Him knowing He wants us, and sent His Son to die for us, that we can be with Him for eternity.

However, I also refuse to water down the truth of His word, and make excuses knowing that He will not be partial to me, just because I'm His favorite, [at least that's how He makes me feel].

I know for sure He won't be partial with you, though He loves as His own son.

But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:27



JLB

 

[JLB]

Exo_4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

At the judgement seat, Pharaoh stands before The Lord Jesus, and The Lord says to him:

I don't hold against you these transgressions for which I hardened your heart, even though I foresaw you would indeed not let my people go, when I sent my servant Moses to demonstrate my power before you.

I foresaw that you would have indeed let them go, after the frogs came up from the river, however I had to harden your heart to the point you would not let my people go even until I sent the plague to take all the firstborn sons in Egypt.

So now, because I hardened your heart, I can have mercy on you for the entire dealings I had with you and your nation.



Now... lets talk about the rest of your life....




22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:22-24



JLB