Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[Jethro Bodine]

Usually, after I've refuted your points early in your posts, I don't bother to read to the bottom. No reason to respond to what else is written after refuting the early part of your posts.

It often seems to me that you have not even read what I've said. Now I know why. You'll have to read what I write if you want to debate me. Perhaps you're afraid of what you'll read if you read all of my posts.

So, what is this so-called challenge to my argument? But this time, put in early in your posts, where I'll read it.

These are the very first lines of post #928:

Then 'whoever' and 'Me' and 'who believe' are figurative, too , then, right?
"6 ...whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble" (Matthew 18:6 NASB bold mine)​

Since you cast the passage away on the basis of it being entirely figurative (to get rid of the hell believers in Christ can be cast into) then surely you must also say that 'whoever', 'who believes', and 'Me' are figurative too, thus making the passage completely safe, sanitized, and meaningless for the ardent OSASer who is too afraid to acknowledge the obvious and plain truth Jesus teaches. It's a ridiculous claim that just because he describes in metaphors those who make believers stumble that everything in the passage is a meaningless metaphor. That's a grasping, gasping, desperate argument. The plain truth visible for all honest people to see is that Jesus says that believers in Christ can be made to stumble so as to go to the place of eternal fire: The very thing OSASer's are sure can never, ever happen under any circumstances to the one who believes in Christ.

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

Making the passage completely figurative to avoid the reality of the hell he talks about is so obviously ludicrous as to be beyond honest consideration. He uses figures to describe the 'whoevers' that causes the stumbling, but even that figure he explains. But it's impossible to make the real believers in him, and the hell he says they can be cast into merely figurative. That's a sad, vain attempt to make this clear non-OSAS passage go away.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK, let's go with that idea. Where does the Bible describe unbelief as a sin? Secondly, where does the Bible say that Christ never died for that sin?

Unless there is evidence from Scripture for both of these questions, your premise is flawed wrong.

In the passage below, unbelief is a sin, and to be guilty of that sin is to no longer be holding fast the assurance of faith and instead to fall away from God and no longer be a partaker of Christ:

"12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end..." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NASB)

And anyone who does not have Christ does not have eternal life:
"...he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)

Which only makes sense since Christ IS eternal life:

"His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20 NASB)

You can't still have eternal life if you no longer have Jesus Christ because of an evil, sinful, unbelieving heart that has fallen away from God and which does not hold fast the assurance of faith to the very end. These are the plain words of scripture I'm posting.

 

[JLB]

That's a great passage, demonstrating my statements above.

You have never yet, produced a scripture that teaches us people themselves are thrown into the fire and burned.

Notice, Paul's flesh and Paul's spirit needed cleansing too. Yet you evidently think you have cleaned up yours.

I have obeyed the scripture in doing what this passage, as well as other's, teaches us we are to do, by confessing my sin to the Lord, repenting before the Lord, and watching Him transform my life, as He sets me free from iniquity's, and sin. I have also learned to obey Him about not associating with friends from the past who refuse to leave a sinful lifestyle, as staying away from places that I have no business being in.

I have learned to develop a sensitivity to the Voice of the Holy Spirit as He leads me to practice what is pleasing and right to God.

This is the key to obtaining the precious promises from God.

As He makes alive to me a scripture about a certain promise or a correction, I have learned to take hold of it and make it my personal promise from God. I claim it, and meditate on it, and turn it into a prayer back to Him... thanking Him as I acknowledge what He wants to in me by faith.

Whether He is wanting to give me a victory in my business, my life, my family... I have learned how to hold fast and not let go of the things that the Lord says to me through His word, and in my heart.

When it comes to healing and transformation, this is how we are washed with the water of His word.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. Ephesians 5:25-27

That is the Rhema word, that is spoken to me, from the Spirit, whether through the scripture or in my heart.

The picture of this is from the old testament laver.


The laver was made of bronze, lined with mirrors, and filled with water for washing.

The mirror shows us where we are dirty, and the water washes us.


James said it this way, and uses the word logos [word], having a dual meaning of both the scriptures and the living Logos of Christ Himself.

21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. James 1:21-25


We are cleansed as we yield ourselves before God, repent and confess our sin and do what His word says.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

The OSAS doctrine eliminates this beautiful process of transformation by teaching that when we believe the Gospel we are forgiven all our sins past present and future, so there is no need to ever confess your sin again.

This completely disregards this scripture and many more.


No where have I found in the scriptures that people themselves are thrown into the fire and burned, so that they are "cleansed".

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

"The fire" is a reference to hell as I have shown from the scriptures.



JLB

 

[chessman]

6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble,

What makes you think the "whoever" mentioned here is a saved person?

Could be saved or unsaved, right? I mean it says whoever. Then says that man, "causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble ..."
This passage is distinguishing the "him" that's doing the causing with "these little ones who believe in Me".

This passage is NOT anti-OSAS.

That is, unless you re-interpret what it means to stumble into de-salvation. I assume, you realize that to "stumble" does NOT mean to become de-saved.

Psalm 37:23-25 (YLT) From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth. When he falleth, he is not cast down, For Jehovah is sustaining his hand. Young I have been, I have also become old, And I have not seen the righteous forsaken, And his seed seeking bread.

James 3:2 (LEB) For we all [including James] stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect individual, able to hold in check his whole body also.

​

 

[JLB]

It is simply impossible to read 2 Cor 7 and not see believers (including Paul) having afflictions, fear, grief and needing comfort indeed through God's will. Yet God's cleansing of those fears (which fearing men is a sin, see Matt 10:28a) is there too!

2 Corinthians 7:5-7, 10-11 (LEB) For even when we arrived in Macedonia, our body had no rest, but we were afflicted in every way—quarrels outside, fears within.
But God, who comforts the humble, comforted us by the coming of Titus, and not only by his coming, but also by the comfort with which he was comforted among you, because he reported to us your longing, your mourning, your zeal for me, so that I rejoiced even more.
For grief according to the will of God brings about a repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but worldly grief brings about death.
For behold how much diligence this very thing, being grieved according to the will of God, has brought about in you: what defense of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! In everything you have demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in this matter.
One day, however, God will remove all our afflictions and fears. Including any fear of loss of salvation.

Isaiah 41:10 (LEB) You must not fear, for I am with you; you must not be afraid, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, indeed I will help you, indeed I will take hold of you with the right hand of my salvation.
Some of us, however, do not fear loss of salvation precisely because of God's right hand). Some think they cleanse their own hands, feet, eyes and hearts.

Here is what leads to cleansing.

8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter. 2 Corinthians 7:8-11


Thanks for making my point.

Godly sorrow produces repentance that leads to salvation.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This passage is distinguishing the "him" that's doing the causing with "these little ones who believe in Me".

We all can see that.
The point that can't be evaded is Christ says the stumbling that believers in him do causes them to be cast into hell. A fate OSAS swears can never, ever come to a believer in Christ.

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB bold mine)

 

[chessman]

I have obeyed the scripture in doing what this passage, as well as other's, teaches us we are to do, by confessing my sin to the Lord, repenting before the Lord, and watching Him transform my life, as He sets me free from iniquity's, and sin.

Excellent. When's the last time you sinned and confessed and repented? Or are you now, already set free from sin?

Romans 6:7 (LEB) for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.
​

I assume your body has not died, right?

 

[chessman]

The point that can't be evaded is Christ says the stumbling that believers in him do causes them to be cast into hell.

No it doesn't! It simply and plainly says it is better for "you" (the little one) to enter life than to be cast into Hell. And it is better. You are mixing up the "you" and the them (whoever is NOT a little one).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have failed to explain how eternal life, a gift of God, is NOT irrevocable

It has been explained to you many, many times.
The gifts and calling remain for the nation of Israel.

"Did God reject his people? By no means!" (Romans 11:1 NASB)

God has not changed his mind about that. He did not change his mind about the gifts and calling extended to them just because former generations, now dead and condemned for eternity, did not accept them. The invitation to walk in the gifts and calling he ordained for them is still on the table. It has not been revoked. Never will be. There's always a remnant among them who receives them. And one day the nation as a whole will receive them.

You've been ignoring the context all along and have been unrightly dividing out vs.11 from the context and what Paul is actually talking about. That's why honest readers of the scriptures can't accept your interpretation of that single verse you have isolated away from the context. We would have to lie to ourselves about what Paul is talking about in the passage to accept what you say. I'm not a liar. 'Taint gonna do it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No it doesn't! It simply and plainly says it better for "you" (the lillte one) to enter life than to be cast into Hell. And it is better. You are mixing up the "you" and the them (whoever is NOT a lillte one).

'You' means little ones who believe in Jesus. It is better for them to get rid of those who cause them to stumble, like cutting out an eye, or cutting off a hand, than to still have them among them, be stumbled by them, and be cast into hell. But OSAS swears that fate can never, ever come to the one who believes in Jesus.

The interesting, and ironic, thing about it is, hyper-grace OSAS is exactly a teaching that would cause a believer in Christ to stumble so as to go to hell, because it swears you can become a former believer and you still have Christ's eternal life. And if you want to argue that unbelief is not stumbling, then what in Christ's Holy Name is stumbling? What is worse than outright unbelief that makes unbelief not stumbling?

I'm speaking very clearly. What is it that you do not understand in what I just wrote?

 

[chessman]

Godly sorrow produces repentance that leads to salvation.

I never said it didn't. What I said was that one day, God will 100% clean our bodies. Short of that, we have only partially cleaned bodies. A person may think they've cleaned up their body, but they haven't. Not even Paul. Not yet, but He will one day:

Romans 6:7 (LEB) for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.​

You have never yet, produced a scripture that teaches us people themselves are thrown into the fire and burned.

Yes I have, numerous times and from various passages. Last time:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (LEB) Now if anyone builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, the work of each one will become evident. For the day will reveal it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the work of each one, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work that he has built upon it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire.​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Go back to v.18 of the same chapter:
"And where these have been forgiven, there is NO LONGER any sacrifice for sin."

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left" (Hebrews 10:26 NIV)

The remaining context explains what will happen to you if you deliberately keep on sinning. It's hardly what you say, that your willful sinning/unbelief will be forgiven:

"27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:27-31 NIV)

Once again, you are guilty of ignoring the context. You are unrightly dividing the word away from it's context....again.

 

[JLB]

​

I never said it didn't. What I said was that one day, God will 100% clean our bodies. Short of that, we have only partially cleaned bodies. A person may think they've cleaned up their body, but they haven't. Not even Paul. Not yet, but He will one day:

Romans 6:7 (LEB) for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.

Yes I have, numerous times and from various passages. Last time:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (LEB) Now if anyone builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, the work of each one will become evident. For the day will reveal it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the work of each one, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work that he has built upon it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire.

The work is people. The Temple. The building of God.

Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians

If the people, who are the work are burned up, the worker himself will suffer loss.

This is plainly illustrated in the next verse 16.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3;16


Once again we see that God Himself will destroy by fire those who bring defilement to His Temple, the people themselves who are His dwelling place: who are "in Him".


12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:12-17


If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:17

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


In both passages, those who are the Temple, or "in Him" end up in the fire and burned; destroyed.


JLB

 

[chessman]

I'm speaking very clearly. What is it that you do not understand in what I just wrote?

Not really. Here let me show you.

'You' means little ones who believe in Jesus. It is better for them to get rid of those who cause them to stumble, like cutting out an eye, or cutting off a hand, ...

This sentence, I understand it so far. And it comports to what Jesus is saying in the passage. What doesn't make sense (because it's not clear, in fact) is the rest of your sentence. Who's the "them" in the rest:

... than to still have them among them, be stumbled by them, and be cast into hell.

Way to many "thems" to be 'clear' when talking about two groups of people in the same sentence; 1) The little ones and 2) those casusing the little ones to stumble.

You are mixing up the thems (those causing the stumbling and those stumbling) with the little ones. I highly suspect on purpose.

And if you want to argue that unbelief is not stumbling, then what in Christ's Holy Name is stumbling?

I posted the Biblical meaning of stumbling. It DOES NOT mean to be cast into Hell nor does it mean unbelief. Unbelief is just that, to not believe. Little ones can believe yet stumble, obviously. Again you mix words up. I highly suspect on purpose.

 

[chessman]

The work is people.

Did you ask for a verse where people are burned in fire or not? I'm pretty sure you did, repeatedly even though I have answered your question with it over and over.

You have never yet, produced a scripture that teaches us people themselves are thrown into the fire and burned.

Poof, there's your verse. But notice, the man comes out saved.

 

[smaller]

No, that's not it. There is only one sin that Christ did not die for--the sin of UNBELIEF. It is impossible to have the blood of Christ to cover the sin of unbelief when you don't even have the blood of Christ to do that because you do not believe in it (Hebrews 10:26 NASB).

Well, there it IS. The "sin" that supposedly wasn't accounted for by Jesus on His Cross? It's good that you finally arrived at that sight. I arrived at the same sight, just prior to understanding that even that sin was "taken away" when Grace and Mercy of God in Christ came.

Are believers later blinded? Of course. But scriptures also show us quite plainly that the sin of unbelief, as this applies to "the chosen" in the case of Moses, did NOT result in eternal hell for Moses.

So there, in plain language, is the eradication of your claim. This matter was examined closely already in this thread.

Your position is askew. Your position is provably wrong.

Jude 1:
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Moses was included in the above.

Numbers 20:12
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Did Moses wind up in eternal hell over this? Assuredly NOT. Here Moses makes a POST DEATH appearance. There are of course other implications to this showing, but here Moses is. Did Moses land in eternal hell over unbelief? Of course NOT.

Matthew 17:
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

 

[smaller]

This scripture keeps re-asserting that "believers" will be "in hell" for some odd reason, since there is ZERO indication that it is a BELIEVER who is causing the stumbling when in fact it says no such thing a'tall.

Matt. 18:
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Who is the above referring to is the question? We gots to do a little "investigating" to figure out WHO this refers to, which we CAN find if we LOOK:

Revelation 18:21
And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Ah ha! Here this little mystery is SOLVED.

It has ZERO to do with "a believer."

 

[smaller]

I posted the Biblical meaning of stumbling. It DOES NOT mean to be cast into Hell nor does it mean unbelief. Unbelief is just that, to not believe. Little ones can believe yet stumble, obviously. Again you mix words up. I highly suspect on purpose.

There is a cause for "unbelief." WHO is that cause? What does the perp do? The perp causes people to stumble, in unbelief. The BELIEF that they are not saved or even "might not be" saved. The very BELIEF that these positions bring, that believers will not/might not be saved. But WHO is really behind that form of UNbelief?

Luke 8:
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

The very position that is being foisted is in fact what the DEVIL does.

Believers who engage that they "might not be saved" are in fact dealing themselves with the ADVERSARY, who is trying to STEAL their salvation.

This same "deception" exists in people who think they are not sinners. They are again, being LIED to by that same perp, who makes them think they are "sinless" by not continuing in sin, when for no uncertain FACT every believer is and remains a sinner, period.

Whoever concocted a couple of Bible versions that tampered with the notion of "continuing in sin" when NO ONE ceases to be a sinner was BLIND when they made that translation.

There is no such thing as a "sinless" believer to start with. Every believer "continues" to be a sinner, whether they like the idea of it or not.

 

[chessman]

The very position that is being foisted is in fact what the DEVIL does.

I agreed with the rest of this post. Except I have no idea what foisted meant. I had to look it up. So now, yes I agree with it all.

I would add:

James 3:15, 17 (LEB) This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. ...
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceful, gentle, obedient, full of mercy and good fruits, nonjudgmental, without hypocrisy, ​

Believers 'judging' other believers to Hell for sins such as "lust or covet or whatever" is about as hypocritical as it comes.

a plain read of the passage shows he's referring to cutting off those who cause us to lust, or covet, or whatever, so as to send us to hell

 

[FreeGrace]

It often seems to me that you have not even read what I've said. Now I know why. You'll have to read what I write if you want to debate me. Perhaps you're afraid of what you'll read if you read all of my posts.

Actually seems just the opposite; that my posts aren't read. When the opening points of your posts are refuted, there is nothing left to discuss/debate. So I ignore the rest, as it's just irrelevant, since your opening points have been refuted.

I deleted the rest of your post as immaterial to the real issue. I've shown from solid logic that eternal life is irrevocable, and no one has YET proven otherwise.

Once the logic of my position HAS been refuted from Romans, where the logic comes from, THEN, and only then, will I read the "rest" of your posts.

My logic has not been dislodged nor disproven, yet I'm expected to believe your views?? All of which amounts to pure speculation and assumption. Not gonna happen.