Is Jesus really God ?

[savedbygrace57]

Christ Deity as God is seen in scripture when we compare scripture with scripture, as eccles states in 12:

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The Spirit of man [at death] returns unto God [elohim] who gave it ! Gen 1:1

Now compare that with stephens words at his death acts 7:

59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Notice, that He specifically calls upon God and says, Lord Jesus receive my Spirit, this points to Jesus as being God, Elohim of ecc 12:7
​

 

[Sissy]

 

[savedbygrace57]

One of the ways to understand scripture and its Truth is comparing scripture with scripture and we receive enlightenment if God permits.

Now we will , in showing that Jesus Christ is Jehovah God look at Joel 2:32 and compare with Acts 2:21 & rom 10:9-13

Joel 2:

28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Now notice who is to be called upon in this prophecy, The LORD, the hebrew word is:

Yĕhovah:

Jehovah = "the existing One"

1) the proper name of the one true God

So it should be no doubt that its Jehovah God to be called upon to be delivered !

Now Peter in preaching the fulfillment of this Prophecy in acts 2:


14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever [Jew or Gentile] shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Now, the Holy Spirit applies the name Lord as the one to call upon to be saved. The greek word is:

kyrios:

this title is given to: God, the Messiah

Now we know, that the word must be applied to God in the context of which we find it, simply because its OT prophecy uses the word Jehovah Joel 2:32

So it can only be concluded that the LORD in Joel 2 32 is the Lord in acts 2:21.

Now lets determine who the Lord in acts 2:21 is ?

The Lord in acts 2 21 is the Lord Jesus Christ, for there is no other name given unto men under heaven whereby we must be saved acts 4:

10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.


11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation [deliverance] in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved [delivered or rescued].

For it is Jesus who shall save [deliver] His People from their sins [salvation] Matt 1:


21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS[Jehovah is Salvation]: for he shall save his people from their sins.

See what the name Jesus means ? Jehovah is Salvation !

Also, in Joel, the prophecy points to a remnant that shall call upon His Name to be delivered Joel 2:

32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

This applies first, but not limited to, a jewish remnant within national Israel as seen in acts 2 !

And so, if we compare another scripture, we will find confirmed that Lord, who they call upon to be saved, is The Lord Jesus Christ:

rom 10:



9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [ see Joel 2:32, acts 2:21]

Here you have it, as indisputable proof that the Lord to call upon his name to be delivered or saved for the jew, was the Lord Jesus Christ [ rom 10:9,13]

Of which is in fulfillment of the prophecy in Joel 2:32, hence through careful biblical analysis from the OT unto the NT we must conclude that the Jehovah to call upon to be saved in Joel 2 32 is none other but the Lord Jesus Christ in acts 2:21, rom 10:9, 13 affirming the Deity of Jesus Christ..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Lord of Glory

The title the Lord of Glory speaks to the Deity of Jesus Christ !

1 cor 2:8

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. or the glorious Jehovah !

James 2:1

My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons

Isa 33:21

But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.


There is no difference from ps 29:3

The voice of the LORD is upon the waters: the God of glory thundereth: the LORD is upon many waters.

acts 7:2

And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,

Jesus is the God of Glory !​

 

[Strangelove]

Jesus is the God of Glory !

HOORAY and AMEN.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Many of the adversaries of the Truth of the Deity of Christ make their appeal to those scriptures which highlight His Manhood or His subordinate role as the Mediator, and I would be the First to agree that in those capacities and nature, He is inferior to the Father; But all that does not disprove His Deity according to His Divine Nature, by which He is God of very God, and this revelation should humble us in Adoration ! I am sure that scripture sets forth the Lord Jesus Christ as Truly Man, and equally as sure the scripture sets Him forth as the Word become Flesh Jn 1:1,14 and that Word was God ! It cannot be made more plainer than that.

Jn 1:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So in His Divine Being and Nature as the Eternal Logos, He is God, Uncreated, Unbegotten, Ungenerated. He was God manifested in the Flesh, God becoming a Man as you and I, sin excepted.

To the adversaries of the Truth who zero in on the inferior nature of Christ, that born of a women, that in itself does not disprove the Existence of His Divine Nature in alliance with the human and inferior.

My Father is greater than I Jn 14:


28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

For what does this prove that Trinitarians do not already acknowledge ? In that, in His Manhood, and Mediatorial office, he is in subjection to the Father. This scripture however was never intended to contradict another text which declares in His Divine Nature, as the Word [ Jn 1:1], He is God, and of the same Essence !​

 

[Strangelove]

So if someone denies the deity of Christ then they are not Christian correct?

So can you help me out on this thread plz:

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/coming-christ-judgment-31649/index2.html#post467025http://www.christianforums.net/f20/coming-christ-judgment-31649/index2.html#post467025

 

[savedbygrace57]

The adversary likes this verse to deny the Deity of Christ !

Mk 13:32

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son[As Man], but the Father. Now this is so True if indeed Christ be Truly Man, but does this absolutely disproves His Divine Nature ? Is it not written in another scripture that He knoweth all things ?

Jn 21:

17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Now, Consider, would Peter make such a statement if He viewed Jesus as only a man ? What man knoweth all things ? Only God does.

And no doubt the Lord Jesus Christ is being addressed here acts 1:


24And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Now, who knows the hearts of all men save God ?

Jn 16:

30Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

Again, only God knows all things ! Hence, Jesus must be God in His Divine Nature.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Both of these scriptures declare Jesus Christ as God and Saviour !

2 pet 1:


1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Jesus Christ is both our God and Saviour, this scripture indicates that Jesus Christ is God being our Saviour. He is the very True God whom His People Worship, in that He became our Saviour to save us.

During the Time Peter wrote this this identified the True believers from of the jews, from the jews that did not believe Jesus Christ was God.



Titus 2:13

13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

I don't believe its warranted here that Two Persons are being referenced here, but one, indicating again that Jesus Christ is both our God and Saviour, hence without doubt the Deity of Christ is being declared:

That Jesus Christ is both God and Saviour answers to His Prophesied Birth, Jesus [ Jehovah is Salvation] and Emmanuel [God with us] Matt 1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus Christ is not only the Saviour of His People, but their Great God, which shall be revealed at His appearing and Kingdom shortly 2 tim 4:

1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

This will be when all shall stand before His Throne for Judgment as per rev 20:

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God [Jesus Christ]; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

For all Judgment is given to the Son, so the Son is God who all will stand before here in rev 20:12.
​

 

[Nathan]

I am in agreement that Jesus is God. But I have to admit, that it almost sounds like your trying to discount the triune nature of the three. One God, three separate Persons. Are you making a conclusion that is contrary to this? Just curious. Trying to understand your thoughts clearer.

 

[Dusty]

Christ Deity as God is seen in scripture when we compare scripture with scripture, as eccles states in 12:

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The Spirit of man [at death] returns unto God [elohim] who gave it ! Gen 1:1

Now compare that with stephens words at his death acts 7:

59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Notice, that He specifically calls upon God and says, Lord Jesus receive my Spirit, this points to Jesus as being God, Elohim of ecc 12:7
​

Thank you for all the posts here proving that of course , Jesus is God but part of the triune and sometimes it is hard to wrap our thoughts around the concept as it seems so complex .

Suffice to say when we go back to the Book of Genesis the three were present in creation .... God , Word ( Christ) Holy Spirit .

THe diety of Jesus Christ, or His God nature, is well established in the NT. Some of the facts are :

1--He is called God by the Apostle John ( Verse one.)
2--- He is called God by the Apostle Thomas--- John 20;26
3--He is called God by God the Father--- Heb. 1: 8
4--He claimed to be God in that He was with the Fater before creation John 17:5
5--- He claimed to be God in that He was before Abraham---John 8:51--59
6--He received worship, and only God is to be woeshipped -- Matt. 14:33 Angels refused worhip--Rev.22:,8,9 Man refused worship--- Act10:25,26
7--He forgives sin --- Mark 2:5---11
8 He is creator and maker of all things--- Col . 1:16
9--He is sustainer of all things-- Heb.1:3 -- Only God can control the universe.
10--- He claimoed to have " all power in heaven and in earth" ---Matt.28:18 Only God has all power.
11--He walked upon the blue waters of Galilee. The winds and the waves obeyed His command. He healed the sick and raised the dead. He gave sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf. He cast out demons and made the lame to walk. He turned water into wine, and fed five thousand with the lunch of a lad.

 

[Strangelove]

I am in agreement that Jesus is God. But I have to admit, that it almost sounds like your trying to discount the triune nature of the three. One God, three separate Persons. Are you making a conclusion that is contrary to this? Just curious. Trying to understand your thoughts clearer.

I agree with your bolded statement there NateDog but can we say persons/manifestations/beings/entity's/insert similar adjective etc?. We dont know the EXACT nature of the Godhead and the specific extent of seperation/oneness but as long as we all recognise that the 3 components are divine then we can all be friends yes?

 

[Dusty]

John 1:18...... No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

And this verse telling us that no one has seen the Father but thousands have seen Jesus .

James 1:13 ..... When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.

God says He cannot be tempted . For 40 days and nights Jesus was tempted in the wilderness . Jesus was tempted by satan and He lived every day on earth subjected to the same tempatations that we experience.

THe Bible says that God is omnisceint - that He knows everything . Jesus when He walked on earth knew everything as well as there were so many examples of His knowledge... such as the woman at the well .... that Peter would deny him , that Judas would betray Him and there are many more examples.

Jesus had to learn obedience through suffering and He had to " increase in wisdom , stature and in favour with God and man "

God alone is immortal , the scripture says God will never die , yet Jesus died . All this is declared impossible for God yet it was true of Jesus .

Hmmmm - so I ask how do we understand these apparent discrepancies ? These things are very hard to explain or understand .

In summary I would say that Jesus was never less than God as far as His being is concerned.

Jesus lived as though He was never more than man. He behaved like a real man as far as what He did was concerned.
He patterned His life as we men and women were designed to behave .

ONce again I come back to Jesus behaviour as a man , in complete dependence on God .

We also have a mandate to pattern our life after Christ in complete dependence on the Holy Spirit , Jesus and God . THe Holy Spirit is our Comforter , our wisdom , Jesus Christ our Intercessor and revere our Heavenly Father , God .

 

[Free]

I agree with your bolded statement there NateDog but can we say persons/manifestations/beings/entity's/insert similar adjective etc?. We dont know the EXACT nature of the Godhead and the specific extent of seperation/oneness but as long as we all recognise that the 3 components are divine then we can all be friends yes?

I would say no. The wording is very specific to avoid any further confusion or inconsistency or incoherence with what is stated in Scripture. We should not just throw in words casually as though they will suffice.

For instance, there is a huge difference between "person" and "manifestation" or "entity." The word "person," although imperfect, is typically used because it best conveys the idea of personality, or "person-ness," and distinctiveness between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Granted we cannot know the specifics of this union and "how it all works," but it really does matter whether or not God is triune. I do not see how one can fully worship God in spirit and in truth if one denies what is revealed about God in Scripture.

 

[Strangelove]

I would say no. The wording is very specific to avoid any further confusion or inconsistency or incoherence with what is stated in Scripture. We should not just throw in words casually as though they will suffice.

For instance, there is a huge difference between "person" and "manifestation" or "entity." The word "person," although imperfect, is typically used because it best conveys the idea of personality, or "person-ness," and distinctiveness between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Granted we cannot know the specifics of this union and "how it all works," but it really does matter whether or not God is triune. I do not see how one can fully worship God in spirit and in truth if one denies what is revealed about God in Scripture.

No-one here is saying God is not triune in nature (not yet anyhow). But if you say we cannot know the specifics and yet we have to use a specific word to describe the nature of the components then that is a little,....shall we say....rigid? No?

I would say people can use whatever word they want as long as they recognise that all 3 components are divine then.....s'all good.

 

[Sparkey]

Yes, for the record, our Lord, Jesus is the Christ, the Anointed, the Messiah, the Way, the Truth, the Life. He is the Word, the Living Word. The Word IS God.

Now, may I ask?

Is Jesus REALLY man? Is he flesh? Did he learn? Did he learn obedience? Probably should open another thread; no need to reply to me here as it is not my intent to derail the thread -AND- the question is somewhat rhetorical.

Whoever inquires about our childhood wants to know something about our soul. If the question is not just a rhetorical one and the questioner has the patience to listen, he will come to realize that we love with horror and hate with an inexplicable love whatever caused us our greatest pain and difficulty.

--as quoted in "Poisonous Pedagogy," For Your Own Good ...

 

[Sparkey]

John 1:18...... No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

I could not help but notice that the quote you referenced was changed (from the KJV1900, as referenced). The actual quote is, John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Perhaps you were quoting a different version? If so, I'd be interested to know which, please?

Cordially,
~Sparrow

 

[Nathan]

I agree with your bolded statement there NateDog but can we say persons/manifestations/beings/entity's/insert similar adjective etc?. We dont know the EXACT nature of the Godhead and the specific extent of seperation/oneness but as long as we all recognise that the 3 components are divine then we can all be friends yes?

No to the first part, yes to the second Scripturaly it is undeniable that there are three "specific" persons. So to say 'manifestations' would mean that one would become like something else.

Yes, it is true we do not know the EXACT nature of God.

I would say no. The wording is very specific to avoid any further confusion or inconsistency or incoherence with what is stated in Scripture. We should not just throw in words casually as though they will suffice.

For instance, there is a huge difference between "person" and "manifestation" or "entity." The word "person," although imperfect, is typically used because it best conveys the idea of personality, or "person-ness," and distinctiveness between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Granted we cannot know the specifics of this union and "how it all works," but it really does matter whether or not God is triune. I do not see how one can fully worship God in spirit and in truth if one denies what is revealed about God in Scripture.

 

[Strangelove]

No to the first part, yes to the second Scripturaly it is undeniable that there are three "specific" persons. So to say 'manifestations' would mean that one would become like something else.

Yes, it is true we do not know the EXACT nature of God.

man·i·fes·ta·tion

1.
a. The act of manifesting.
b. The state of being manifested.
2. An indication of the existence, reality, or presence of something:3.
a. One of the forms in which someone or something, such as a person, a divine being, or an idea, is revealed.
b. The materialized form of a spirit.
4. A public demonstration, usually of a political nature.

I dont think it's a flogging offence to use the word. Especially when you see all 3 components as being seperate divine ................

Just sayin' its a word dude. Like a previous poster said its the understanding of the nature of the ........... that counts not what words you use to describe it. (as long as its not a bad word )

Doc.

 

[Nathan]

man·i·fes·ta·tion

1.
a. The act of manifesting.
b. The state of being manifested.
2. An indication of the existence, reality, or presence of something:3.
a. One of the forms in which someone or something, such as a person, a divine being, or an idea, is revealed.
b. The materialized form of a spirit.
4. A public demonstration, usually of a political nature.

I dont think it's a flogging offence to use the word. Especially when you see all 3 components as being seperate divine ................

Just sayin' its a word dude. Like a previous poster said its the understanding of the nature of the ........... that counts not what words you use to describe it. (as long as its not a bad word )

Doc.

Well I am not going to :whip you over it.

The fact remains, that if we do not say that they are 'distinctly' separate, then it means that Jesus and God could not be in the same "room" together in separate forms. Oh sure, Jesus and God could be, because Jesus is indeed God, but then it means that when Jesus was here on the earth, God the Father was not in heaven, it would lead someone to think that He was here on the earth.

It gets confusing huh? lol. That is the only thing I am saying for sure. It should be made known that they are 'distinctly' separate.