Is Mk 16:9-20 really scripture?

Discussion in 'Theology' started by Jim Parker, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    Mark 16:9-20 has been challenged as to its "authenticity" and "inspiration" because it does not appear in two early manuscripts while nearly all other manuscripts ever discovered have these verses.

    Is there anything in the rest of scripture which supports these verses as "authentic" and "inspired"?

    Mar 16:9-11 Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons. She went and told those who had been with Him, as they mourned and wept. And when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe.

    Parallel passage:
    Jhn 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord,[fn] and that He had spoken these things to her.

    Is there any other example of Jesus' disciples not believing that He was risen?

    Yes: John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said to him (Thomas), “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

    Mar 16:12-13 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country. And they went and told it to the rest, but they did not believe them either.

    Parallel passage:
    Luke 24:13-30 (On the road to Emmaus)

    Mar 16:14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

    Parallel passage:
    Luk 24:36-39 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

    Mar 16:15-16 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

    Parallel passages:
    Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
    Jhn 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Mar 16:17-18 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

    Parallel passage:
    Luk 10:19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

    Mar 16:19-20 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen

    Parallel passage: Acts

    What is recorded in these so-called "questionable" verses, is also recorded in other Gospels. That is why the Church has, from its earliest times, considered these verses as valid scripture.

    And so should we consider them valid.


    iakov the fool
    (beaucoup dien cai dau)


    DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  2. billybalke

    billybalke Member

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    God bless you sir, you are right on target. And just think, there is even more proof of it being valid.
     
  3. civilwarbuff

    civilwarbuff Member

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    Be warned, the link is a long read.........
    https://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=704

    THE AUTHENTICITY OF MARK 16:9-20

    One textual variant that has received considerable attention from the textual critic concerns the last twelve verses of Mark. Much has been written on the subject in the last two centuries or so. Most, if not all, scholars who have examined the subject concede that the truths presented in the verses are historically authentic—even if they reject the genuineness of the verses as being originally part of Mark’s account. The verses contain no teaching of significance that is not taught elsewhere. Christ’s post-resurrection appearance to Mary is verified elsewhere (Luke 8:2; John 20:1-18), as is His appearance to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:35), and His appearance to the eleven apostles (Luke 24:36-43; John 20:19-23). The “Great Commission” is presented by two of the other three gospel writers (Matthew 28:18-20; Luke 24:46-48), and Luke verifies the ascension twice (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9). The promise of the signs that were to accompany the apostles’ activities is hinted at by Matthew (28:20), noted by the Hebrews writer (2:3-4), explained in greater detail by John (chapters 14-16; cf. 14:12), and demonstrated by the events of the book of Acts (see McGarvey, 1875, pp. 377-378).

    Four Textual Possibilities
    According to Metzger (1994, pp. 102ff.), the extant manuscript evidence contains essentially four different endings for the book of Mark: (1) the omission of 16:9-20; (2) the inclusion of 16:9-20; (3) the inclusion of 16:9-20 with the insertion of an additional statement between verse 8 and verse 9 that reads: “But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told. And after this Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation”; and (4) the inclusion of 16:9-20 with the insertion of an additional statement between verses 14 and 15 which reads:

    And they excused themselves, saying, “This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things of the spirits [or, does not allow what lies under the unclean spirits to understand the truth and power of God]. Therefore reveal thy righteousness now”—thus they spoke to Christ. And Christ replied to them, “The term of years of Satan’s power has been fulfilled, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who have sinned I was delivered over to death, that they may return to the truth and sin no more, in order that they may inherit the spiritual and incorruptible glory of righteousness which is in heaven.”
    The fourth reading of the text may be eliminated as spurious. Meager external evidence exists to support it, i.e., only one Greek manuscript—Codex Washingtonianus. As Jack Lewis noted: “The support for the shorter ending is so inferior that no scholar would champion that Mark wrote this ending” (1988, p. 598). It bears what Metzger called “an unmistakable apocryphal flavor” (1994, p. 104). The statement does not match the style and grandeur of the rest of the section, leaving the general impression of having been fabricated. This latter point applies equally to the third ending since it, too, possesses a rhetorical tone that contrasts—even clashes—with Mark’s simple style.
     
  4. civilwarbuff

    civilwarbuff Member

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    I won;t be surprised if the only conclusion reached here is total confusion......LOL
     
  5. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    And that is the crux of the misunderstanding, IMO.
    That Mark may have not written it does not mean that it is not to be included in scripture.
    The question is not so much one of authorship as of origin. ("Does this accurately represent the authentic teaching of the apostles?)
    Note that Revelation was very early viewed as not being written by the apostle John. Eusebius (4th century) points out that the vocabulary is different from John's Gospel and letters and that John totally avoided using his own name in those documents.
    Based on Metzger's view, we might well deem Revelation spurious.

    I believe I have demonstrated that 9-20 faithfully presents the apostolic witness.

    iakov the fool
     
  6. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    :lol2
     
  7. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member

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    Didn't Irenaeus quote from the very same verses?
     
  8. Eugene

    Eugene Staff Member Moderator

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    How do you come to the conclusion these separate scriptures are parallel?
     
  9. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Yes, before the 3rd Century. That's pretty early.

     
  10. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Great post Jim. :salute

    Now let the twisting begin.


    JLB
     
  11. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    I don't know. (What a clear and concise answer!!!)
     
  12. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    I can't imagine how you would not come to that conclusion.
    It should be very obvious.

    Why are we shouting????
     
  13. Windsong

    Windsong Member

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    The OP isn't a post open for debate. It's a declaration of one man. Why are we arguing that?
    Where is the scripture that says Mary Magdalene was possessed by seven demons?
     
  14. Eugene

    Eugene Staff Member Moderator

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    Different incidents and commissions; one for the immediate time, and one for the future when Jesus takes the all power given Him?
    Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet . . . . . But now we see not yet all things put under him. (Jesus presently walks among the candlesticks (Rev 2:1), and sits in our Father's throne (Rev 3:21). Jesus receives His own throne in Rev 4:2, and as He exercises that ALL POWER of Mt 28:18, He will put down all those usurping authority (1 Cor 15:24).

    Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
    Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat . . .

    The increased size (Not all bold) was for the benefit of a sister that follows what I say having trouble seeing this smaller font. I reckon she can also increase the size of it to read. Sorry.
     
  15. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    I don't get it.
    They both say to go into the world and make disciples.
     
  16. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    Mar 16:9
    Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons.
    Luk 8:2
    and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities—Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons,

    iakov the fool
     
  17. Eugene

    Eugene Staff Member Moderator

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    Jim, I have no idea if you’re familiar with, or believe the concept of dispensations, but basically it’s the division of God’s working with different ones in different ages, or times. E.g., Act 13:46, Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
    AND
    Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
    Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Again, I’ve no idea your familiarity with Romans Chapter Eleven being that of Israel future in context, but we read in Rom 11:25, For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    There’s coming a time when Israel shall be brought back to God. Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: There shall be witnessing as never before to the nations in those days of the millennium, and in that day they will be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Mt 28:19. Nations will be taught, not just individuals.
    Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    What are we told to do in this present age? Mar 16:15-16 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." And Act 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

    Was there a difference in how they even baptized? Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
    And even in Act 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Did Peter make a mistake here?)

    I will give this time to have any effect it might, but feel free to go further with this if it interests you. :wave2
     
  18. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    I am familiar with it but do not put much stock into the dispensational approach to exegesis.
    It is interesting but I don't think it is the best basis for Biblical interpretation.

    iakov the fool
     
  19. Eugene

    Eugene Staff Member Moderator

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    Okay and thanks. I will say that in seeing the benefit of separating God's dealing with different ones aided me in context to much of scripture. Even with the separation God made with the Apostle Paul versus the other eleven apostles.
    Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
    Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints.

    Blessings in Christ Jesus.
     
  20. wondering

    wondering Member

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    Hi Eugene
    I'm reading along and am sorry I don't understand something.
    Don't mean to detail this thread.
    Please just answer this:
    Are you saying we are in the millineal age??
     

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