Discussion in 'Christianity & Other Religions' started by dustwitch, Oct 9, 2003.
As for the poll I vote "None of the Above."
Is there actually people who like really worship satan?
There are some but they are few and far between. A Pagan friend of mine researched the phenomenon of Satanism and concluded that most of the ones in the UK at least are spotty teenage boys who don't have any success with women.
Henry - I agreed with a lot in your post above but just two things to note:
1. To saw Wiccan and witch is the same thing is like saying Baptist and Christian is the same thing. Baptists may in theory all be Christians but not all Christians are Baptists. Wiccans may be witches (ie. practice magic, although some don't) but not all witches are Wiccans; some are eclectic, FamTrad, Dianic etc. Strictly speaking, only Gardnerians and Alexandrians are Wiccan because of the initiatory tradition.
2. You describe the Wiccans you have met as for the most part bitter and hateful with a persecution complex. Now while this may be true of some, it's not generally true of the ones I've known, either when I was a witch or now I'm a Christian. I'm involved on two messageboards and an email list where Pagans and Christians discuss, one of them run by my Pagan husband. Might it have something to do with the way you spoke to them? Did you slam them or did you show them the truth and compassion of Jesus? Some of them may well have been damaged by Christians and be carrying 'baggage' which needs to go; are you patient enough to minister to them, to listen to them rant and still love them, to continue to point to Jesus?
*scratches head* Hmmm. I thought he was still active, sorry about that. Moving on...
A breif look at a dictionary reveals that the word witch comes from the Middle English wicche, from which the word Wicca is also derived.
For the Wiccan, yes, it does make him less real. The fact that Christians believe in him is what makes him real at all. I would take a closer look at your own religion before accusing others of having 'fatal errors.'
So are you saying that we can control nothing in our lives? That buys into the idea of fate, doesn't it?
Some people thrive on violence and evil ideas, that's how. For some groups, Satan is always ugly and mean, and that's what they like about him. How can he be that and kind at the same instant?
I really love your selective capitalization. You can capitalize 'God' and 'Jesus Christ' but not 'Wicca,' 'Satan,' or 'Hell.' Hmmmm.
But more to the point -- you seem to know alot about Satan. So why does he want to lead people to Hell? Why would he spread the news of peaceful religions instead of just destroying Earth? If he has as much power as you say he does, it wouldn't be that much of a task.
The 'way Satan works' is based on religious beliefs, and different people have different opinions on how exactly he does work. How am I supposed to research something that's different for every person? Being a little ignorant about Satan is different than attacking other religions with grotesque accusations of animal sacrafices.
My comment on collecting souls was rather petty, yes, but I understand the basics.
As for Wiccans being hateful, bitter people... I have met Wiccans like that, but I've also met Christians the same way. Constantly having people shoot down your religion (just do a search on 'Wicca' and see all the sites against it!) does that to people sometimes.
As far as the issue of Satan being "kind and gentle" as he draws people to him, I feel it is neccesary to clarify exactly WHY he would bother to be so kind and gentle.
Now most human beings- and I don't say all, because some people are driven by things such as sadism and masochism- have a particular attraction for "positive" forces- things such as love, kindness, gentleness, etc. (Might I add that tis is probably the driving reason for humans to seek out God- as the Bible tells us time and again that He possesses these characteristics.) We are less likely to be drawn toward Satan if he "shows his true colors". He is called the Father of all Lies, Prince of Darkness, etc. As such, we imagine him to be a rather wily sort of evil stalker, out to destroy and anihilate us at every turn, in last ditch effort to bring every soul available along with him when the Lord casts him into the depths of hell. However, how successful is he going to be if he is merely threatening, frightening, and chasing us to draw us into sin, which leads to spiritual death? Anyone would rather have a gentle, sweet, loving force to turn to. Therefore, Satan, being once the most beautiful angel in creation, head of God's heavenly forces, uses his ingrained and evil powers of manipulation and battle tactics of deception, does everything he can to fool us into thinking that he is that sweet, loving force we seek so earnestly, giving us optimistic-sounding guidelines (such as "An' ye harm none, do what ye will") which sound moral and safe, but actually give us no real structure or plan for salvation (Think about it, what is the Wiccan definition of "harm"? There are many spells for the destruction or harm of others, and the only "punishment" for utilizing them is the Law of Seven, which dictates that any harm you do unto others will come back seven times as hard to you- a law that is clearly fallible as it rarely ever occurs. Wouldn't it be nice, tho, if people really got what they deserved in this world?). Satan tries to lead us into an alternative set of "morals" and "rules" that all sound just as good (if not- at times- better) than God's plan of salvation. He attempts not to steal our souls from God- we already succeed remarkably well in staying away from the Lord on our own- but merely pull a rose-colored veil over our eyes in an attempt to keep us blind to the truth until we die and it's too late to turn to the true way.
And as far as Satan being less real to Wiccans, in that sense, I agree perfectly, that Satan does become "less real" in the mind of the Wiccan who chooses not to believe in him. However, "real" or not, he is at work as much in the life of the Wiccan as he is in the life of the atheist or Christian. Saying "I don't believe in UV rays" doesn't mean you're not going to get a sunburn. It just makes you neglect to put on the sunscreen, and you burn all the worse.
That analogy is more accurate than you think.
God bless and keep you, and lead you on all paths of righteousness,
PS: As for my capitalization, I choose to capitalize proper nouns and I do not define Hell as such. As for alternative capitalization, I capitalize that which I hold in reverence. As I do not worship Satan, I choose not to give him any more priority than what simple grammar dictates. :angel:
Fish-Cross said --Is there actually people who like really worship satan?
Yes their are, there are those who worship satan as he is described in the bible, their is a group that teaches he is the reall Lord and God took his thrown illegally, and one day he'll get it back.
And then their are those who do it, and do not know they are doing it. They are worshiping fasle god and idol, and all fase gods and idols will find their roots in satan somewhere.
So true that all christians are not baptist, but then all baptist are not christians for that matter.
But as for wicca goes the word has it roots in the word witch, you may get all twisted over the use of that word if you would like, but the fact is that is where the word comes from.
And besides, though they may not think they are practicing witchcraft they are trying to manipluate the things around them, and that is all witchcraft really is, basically trying to force Gods hand, and sadly many Christians do the same, especially in the name it claim it bunch.
And yes most the wicccans I have met, in person or on line have been very bitter folks, who have this ideal that the world is out to get them, not all but certainly most. Perhaps one is 50 did not fit this description, and I have been all over the net, and know a few personally, two of whom I grew up with.
Your question about did I slam them, is not are really good questoin is it? No matter what I would say they went off on me, I once quoted Paul about what love was, and that got me banned.
The thread was about what every one thought love was, I quoted Pauls statement on love is kind love is patient and all that, and they freaked out on me. I was called hilter, a killer, and other terrible things.
So, no I did not slam them I was not rude and I was very patient with them, but it did not make an difference I was still attacked and insulted.
You see the problem is not HOW we talk, but that we are talking about Jesus and that is what scares the demons that rule them at this point.
OK you got the root of the word right.
I have taken a very close look at what I beleive, and it is the right path, that is sure. What most folks miss is Jesus they are too bussy looking at men, and miss the Lord altogether, which is why too often you get all this silly stuff, about Christians did this and that.
So what !!! Atheist have done worse, Hindus and Muslems are still doing it, so what !!!
The fact is that men are sinner, and sinners do things that are nasty and cruel, and that is just a fact we all live with day in a day out. This is just what the bible teaches, and the very reason that Jesus came in the first place.
Satan will be what ever you will attract you, if he comes as an ugly monster it is becuase he knows that is what they wish for, he is just not all the interested in anything more then deceiving you, and what ever works is OK by him.
What makes him truel ugly is that reason and hate for which he does the things that he does.
you asked--o why does he want to lead people to Hell? Why would he spread the news of peaceful religions instead of just destroying Earth? If he has as much power as you say he does, it wouldn't be that much of a task.
Wow, you have not clue at all do you. Satan does not lead anyone to hell, sin does that. Hell is not his kingdom he does not wish to go there any more then I do, but he is going that is a fact.
But sin is what drags men to hell, sin can not enter heaven, and if you die in sin, you are shut out and that is hell. All satan wishes to do it keep you from the cross where you sins may be cleansed and forgiven on Jesus merits.
He spreads peaceful and hatefull religons, not that I think wicca is peacefull at all, it is very violent against the mind. As I said it does not matter to him, what ever works.
Destroy the earth, too late that is a done deal sin have not only corrupted the souls of men but that if all creation, which is why in the end of time God is going to recreate it all to the way it was when he said "It is Good"
Power, I did not say he had power, he is liar all his power is in deception and lies, that is why he lets you tell him how to deceive you, and he could really careless how that it, as long it keeps you away from the cross.
We can know what satan is up to by reading the word of God and then seeing how the word of God pans out in the reality of the world that we love, as of course it will. And simply put if what you are believing and worhiping is not that if God in accordance with the word of God, you are wrong, that is just the way it is.
I am not a christian. I am a Wiccan who created an account to reason to Christians that Wicca is a spiritual belief based on nature herself. In Wicca we do not believe in the devil or god. There are many deities though. I know a satanist who asked to be around me more because of Christians always telling me to not worship the devil. She wants to be around me more when this happens so we can explain our differences. Witchcraft is something closely related to wicca but its not apart of it. Wiccans, pagans and druids do practice witchcraft, but not all do. If you practice witchcraft its safer to be in wicca or paganism because of the rules. NEVER cast black magick (magick is energy and spiritual, magic is fake) or it will hit you 3 times harder. I have read some things on what christians here have thought about me and my people and i strongly appreciate how there is 0% who think we worship satan. You can look up what wiccans and pagans say about themselves and not one say they are devil worshipers. I have no problem with christians. Though there are many wiccans who do have a problem with the way Christians look at us.
The pentagram is a symbol of elements not the devil. This is the triple moon. It is the symbol of the goddess.
The worship of what is created, rather than the creator, is forbidden in Christianity. And there's a good reason for that. Worshiping created things invariably leads to doing things that hurt people and bring us into the bondage of the things we worship. We become slaves of what (or who) we worship and esteem above all else. For example, people who worship money, or the human sex drive end up doing things that are destructive to them and those around them in the relentless pursuit of their love and service of those 'gods' of creation.
The influence of people who worship created things, rather than the creator, is very strong. That's why God insists we as Christians distance ourselves ideologically from idol worshipers. That doesn't mean we are to hate and despise and hurt idol worshipers. Quite the opposite, actually. What it means is we do not entertain any thoughts or intentions of bowing to the desire to seek spiritual fulfillment through the worship of created things.
What God does absolutely insist we distance ourselves from are those who try to bring idol worship (the worship of created things) into the church. That is the situation where we are indeed to distance ourselves physically, not just ideologically, from the person who promotes idol worship.
You have two choices of where you can spend eternity: with God (who IS love) or in hell.
There are two paths in life: Love God or self-love.
The moment you leave this life you will encounter God and you will immediately understand that God has an infinite love for you. Because of that love, he will not violate your free will. If you didn't want to be with God during your life on earth, he won't force you to be with Him after this life. You can be separated from God who is love for all eternity and spend all eternity by yourself, loving yourself.
Everything that Christ did was out of love, for the benefit of all mankind so that mankind could live forever in the joy and sweetness of God's love.
Paganism, wicca, etc., are alternative religions which worship the created order rather than the creator and they provide for an alternate outcome. Since you reject God's love and grace and the offer of eternal life, you get nothing......emptiness......eternal death........you get what you pick.
Spiritual belief or otherwise, anything that rejects God is not in good standing. Even at it's best I don't think it can be counted as anything better then any other man made endeavor that has it's own faults and pits. But God can mend the broken, give sight to the blind, be a light to the lost, heal the sick, resurrect even the dead. To those discarded, broken on the inside, or even wicked, God can redeem, can save, strengthen and encourage. No matter where we are in life or in the world, God can help us to be His creation. Be better then we would be without Him. It's not a good thing to discard God.
Stage magic of illusions and talented tricks might not be bad, (hopefully it's not), but the other kind that you're talking about, regardless of the spelling or the language it's discussed in, it's a bad thing. I know this because it's said so in the bible. I'm sorry if this is pushy to you, but I don't know how to say it any other way. God is real and He's reliable. More reliable then anything else. And the bible is spoken from God. Inspired by God or at the very least filled with God's Holy Spirit. That makes it worth listening to, even if it makes me or someone else sound like a hell and brimstone preacher. So again I'm sorry to be pushy, I know you want an conversation to bring understanding. In that light, it would be wrong to not try and share what God stands against for your own benifit.
Thankyou for sharing your beliefs and giving us the chance that others in your community of faith might not. Most of the Christians here I think are mature Christians who know of their own faults and know their own need for God, and for Jesus. I think that's probabley a large reason why no one has said wiccans are worshiping Satan. (Or at least not on purpose if argued that way.). In one way or another we're in the same boat. All of mankind is in our broken and breaking world. If you stay, there are many good members here who can give you a foundation on Christianity, help you find God, or at the very least lead you in the right direction for your own investigations to search out the matter. If you wanted to reason with Christians, please stick around so that we can reason back and hopefully bring you to the best of all things, to find God and be saved by Him.
As the lone voter for "They are totally evil Satan worshippers who likely commit crimes", some explanation was probably in order. The choices in the poll stink and skew in one direction.
That criticism aside, I believe the Bible hit the nail on the head when it said:
Psalm 143:2 Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you. [NIV]
Ecclesiastes 7:20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins. [NIV]
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” [NIV]
Thus EVERYONE is innately "totally evil" and not just Wiccans and Pagans.
I am a Christian and this is a Christian forum, so I am going out on a limb here and assuming that anyone reading this will already have some idea what I think the answer is (hint: Jesus) so I'll spare you any unsolicited proselytizing.
The Bible also presents a clear dichotomy of two great forces, with all beings serving one or the other. Ephesians presents as good a summary of this reality as any:
1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago. [NLT]
As 'Wiccans and Pagans' (self professed), you must freely claim that you are not serving the risen Jesus Christ as Lord and God (and exclusively both for we Christians). Furthermore, you openly claim and brag about your connection with the 'spirits' of this world. Ephesians and Romans and countless other places reiterate that the Devil/Satan and his evil spirits are the rulers of this world and the deceiving spirits with which those not with, for, of the One True God are in communion. Thus you (Wiccans and Pagans) are "Satan worshipers", through your self-inflicted ignorance of refusing to believe the one true God.
If you remain in your "totally evil" old innate nature and choose to follow the lies as "Satan worshipers", then there can be no other possible outcome but you will continue to "commit crimes" against a holy God. So your wording was intended as a form of mockery to ridicule some sort of religious extremism that you would then have fun refuting and mocking with shock and accusations, but your mockery is actually closer to a very sad truth than you know.
Those who told you you are all "probably decent people who are misguided or deceived" probably did not wish to hurt your feelings, or were unwilling to step into your word trap of the harsher answer, but they have done you a disservice. They have not told you what God has said. There are many "misguided" and "deceived" people in the world, but God says that without him, there are no 'decent' people (assuming that 'decent' means that God should not be repulsed by your heart and mind of evil and pour the full measure of His wrath on you for every transgression that you have committed.)
Separate names with a comma.