Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Is the Bible given to us by God?"

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$905.00
Goal
$1,038.00

K2CHRIST

Member
On the suggestion of someone, I felt this is a good topic to talk about.

I would think that any and all Christians have to believe the Bible, in some way or another, were given to us by God! I don't see how you could in any sense call yourself a "Christian" and not believe that. But to what extent is it given to us by God? That really is the question we sometimes battle with.

I mean: is every last word in every last Bible controlled by God at all times?

If a printing error occurs at the time a Bible came off the press, was that error "given to us by God?

And if a allow for a printing error to be just a printing error, then where can that go? What about a miss print when the printing was done by hand along time ago? Couldn't we still have that? And what about all the segments and such, of old transcripts? Some translations come from earlier Bibles like the King James, and others came from considering many old sources.

And then of course there is the question of whether those people who actually wrote the Bible wrote it correctly? They heard from God - (we should believe that if we too hear His voice as in His sheep hear His voice) - but did they actually get it down word for word correctly?

I hear from the Lord. He tells me things and I can write down the things I hear from Him, but are they word for word correct when I get to writing them? There is a game I have seen played where you make a line of people, tell the first person in the line a small story and have then relate it to the person next to them, and so on, then have the person at the end of the line tell the story and see how it changed. The line doesn't have to be long to get it all messed up!

So the question of "Is the Bible given to us by God?" really is a question of "Is the Bible we have today in our hands, a good representation of what was given to the people that heard God back then and wrote it?"

I have some thoughts on this subject, but I think I'll wait to see if others want to comment first.
 
Is every jot and tittle significant and if so then by who's authority, intent and purpose ?

:thumbsup

Yeah, I don't think we have to have a perfect Bible to have a perfect God.

And I believe the message is right. I believe the message is right, and that message is that we need to seek our Lord Jesus Christ and listen for His voice.
 
In baseball it is legal and to your advantage to play off base a little to advance to the next base safely but if you get careless or take to big a chance ''you will get picked off''' by our opponent .. We better stay grounded to the Word it is not a game. just like it is smart to stay where we can get safely back on base and for heavens sake listen to the coach .. :lol .. that'll get you in trouble or benched if you don't
 
A user on another thread wrote:

"This question has come up on another thread...
this site says this:
We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.
What do you believe ?"

What is meant by that? What happens if a Bible has an error coming off the press?

I sell books for a living, and mistake happen at the printer from time to time. The that event make that user and God wrong?

And our translations today (and we have many) come from various sources and some making the translations have done to by examining and consider an incredible number of sources, even little old segments. But say that, denotes that all were not exactly the same. Does that make that user or God wrong.

And some people have come up with what indeed seems like obvious small inconsistencies between verses in the Bible. Does that make that user and or God wrong?

God is not wrong, and that user is not really wrong in her statement either. It depends on how you are going to look at it. The message is correct, even though technically she is wrong. God still talks to people today, and those that listen are constantly getting revelations from Him. Indeed, even starting to hear from Him gives people a new revelations about Him. And certainly we are going to find alsorts of things get revealed to us when we do finally get to heaven.

So while I don't think God is adding to the Bible (even though I like the Amplified Bible which adds lots of words for a better translation- thus again proving that user technically wrong), I obviously know that the Bible is not the final revelation we are getting from God. To really think that is to not believe in God or heaven at all!!

So we people like to come up with almighty statements!

That is we like to make statements as if we were God. "God will not give us anymore written revelations!" That is simply silly, but that is how we are. Can we honestly examine ourselves? No, not really! We really do need to seek the voice of the Lord, and get the reproof and current personal revelations that come from a personal relationship with Him!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
In baseball it is legal and to your advantage to play off base a little to advance to the next base safely but if you get careless or take to big a chance ''you will get picked off''' by our opponent .. We better stay grounded to the Word it is not a game. just like it is smart to stay where we can get safely back on base and for heavens sake listen to the coach .. :lol .. that'll get you in trouble or benched if you don't
God is Wisdom!! We find that in the Bible!!

So in baseball it is wise to take a lead? What would God tell you to do if you were playing baseball? Do you listen to God while playing baseball?

That is the problem. People are not listening to Him though out the day, so they don't know Him. They don't know Wisdom!!

So a Pharisee would probably not take the lead, because they might get picked off, but if they indeed listened to God, they would because it was legal and to their advantage. And that is what we see in the Bible. Jesus came down and healed people on the Sabbath, but those who were going to live by the Law instead of by every word that comes out of the mouth of God got things wrong. They still do!!
 
We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.
and is without error in the original autographs
DId you not read the above?
No where will you find i have ever said the translations are perfect... I have often said i believe God 'big enough' to keep His Word.... meaning keep it together through the ages...
To me when the Scriptures are printed on a Hallmark card it is still the Word of God ... Just as when some one here posts Scripture it is the Word...
 
God is Wisdom!! We find that in the Bible!!

So in baseball it is wise to take a lead? What would God tell you to do if you were playing baseball? Do you listen to God while playing baseball?

That is the problem. People are not listening to Him though out the day, so they don't know Him. They don't know Wisdom!!

So a Pharisee would probably not take the lead, because they might get picked off, but if they indeed listened to God, they would because it was legal and to their advantage. And that is what we see in the Bible. Jesus came down and healed people on the Sabbath, but those who were going to live by the Law instead of by every word that comes out of the mouth of God got things wrong. They still do!!

I was speaking more that we take leads, I have been off base and how do I get back to base .. The Word !!! .. There may have been some cultural/slang translation issues since Babel but the original inspired scripture is Rock solid imo .. Take the mythical unicorn it was a depiction of an artist rendition from a description 2nd hand knowledge of a real unicorn a rhinoceros or the word replenish which transformed from from meaning ''original event'' to ''re-do'' . Do you have any examples maybe I'm missing your point .. People listen, people don't listen , you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip and we ain't supposed to beat the dang salad off of it .. I think it is important to try and know God's characteristics from the OT as well as most important Jesus mind ..
 
and is without error in the original autographs
DId you not read the above?
No where will you find i have ever said the translations are perfect... I have often said i believe God 'big enough' to keep His Word.... meaning keep it together through the ages...
To me when the Scriptures are printed on a Hallmark card it is still the Word of God ... Just as when some one here posts Scripture it is the Word...

I like it Reba - and I generally agree :clap

But the point was that even if it was not punctuation perfect when people like Moses wrote it, (and how do you know that is was if we don't actually have that copy) it is not important! The important thing is that we can know the Lord!!

Now He talks to me personally about the Scriptures, and whether they are perfectly punctuated, spelled, or in the original language, does not ever come into the conversation. He is about the meaning, purpose, and message, not the original autograph. And so the message I have is that people talk to Him. He will ask them to read the Bible, and the Bible is right. He has told me that; but His meaning of the Scriptures being right, when He talks to me, is not like the meaning like presented here like in "original autographs". He never uses things like that with me. I have never heard Him like that.

Here is what I heard concerning the Scriptures being right:


WE DON’T HAVE UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE WE DON’T READ THE BIBLE WITH UNDERSTANDING, BUT OUR UNDERSTANDING…. UNDERSTAND???


THE SCRIPTURES ARE RIGHT, BUT THEY ARE NOT RIGHTEOUS. THEY HAVE NO ABILITY TO ACT. THEY ARE NOT ALIVE, BUT THE WORD OF GOD IS ALIVE AND ACTIVE.


WE DON’T USE THE LORD TO PREACH THE SCRIPTURES; WE USE THE SCRIPTURES TO PREACH THE LORD!!

That is the way He talks to me. It is a lot different than what gets posted around here!

His sheep hear His voice. That is the type of things I hear from Him. I think I know Him. I certainly know the One who spoke the above things to me. I am not presenting them as Scriptures, but words from Him who said His sheep hear His voice. And I write what I do and believe what I do because I know the One who talks to me. The first words He spoke to me were, "Read Your Bible." but they were not the last. He talks to me about the Bible all the time. He tells me where to read in it. And He also talks to me about all parts of my life. But this thread is on the Scriptures and their accuracy. I don't believe I have ever seen the original writings, and I think that if I needed to God could have even preserve them. So do we need to know the accuracy of the original autographs? We need to know God, and the Scriptures are good to use for preaching the Lord!!
 
Cause God told me to believe it

This is an excellent answer. :yes:thumbsup:approve:nod

If God told you to that every word, punctuation, and item recorded in the original transcript was perfect and exactly from Him; that is a good reason!!! That is the reason to believe it!! We are supposed to be living by faith, but that faith is in a God who is always with us! And my purpose is to get people to listen to Him, and for themselves.

Of course the Spirit of God is not the only spirit out there, but that does not mean to doubt it only means that we need to test the spirits? So we all have a personal responsibility to seek the Lord Jesus Christ, listen to what He says, and test it. There is a specific test in the bible re told to use.

I don't know if someone else is telling me the truth and testing the spirits, but I can know for myself if I am doing that. And that is what's important, that each person that can call themselves "I" seek the Lord Jesus Christ and listen to Him, and try to make sure it is Him!

Now He has never told me that the original writing were perfect, and we don't have them anyway, so I am not surprised that it has not come up in a conversation between Him and I, But I am not all that surprise that another Christian would tell me that He told them they were. That is why I first responded to Reba with:

I like it Reba - and I generally agree :clap

Yet, agreeing that the original "autographs" were perfect is not important. Knowing Him which means listening to Him is what's important! And we that know Him, know that the Scriptures as we have them today are good for giving a person wisdom that leads to salvations which is through Him, as in knowing Him! The Scriptures are good for that, and they are good for that whether what we read today is without error or not! The message in them is clear. We need to know the Lord and we do that by hearing with faith. That is: we are saved by faith and that faith is in Him who speaks!

Thus our faith is not in a perfect Bible but in the Lord our God Jesus Christ who has a name called "The Word of God", and sometime "The Great I Am" because He is with us, and speaks!

Reba's answer demonstrates that!


He has not told me that, but even my answer of saying "He has not told me that, also indicated that He speaks. So not every Christian need to believe that original writings were correct, or even that the writing today are correct!! They are Christians because His sheep hear His voice, not because they have had that conversation with the Lord!!!

So what is with our testing other people by having them proclaim some type of particular faith in the Bible; since we are not our selves supposed to be proclaiming faith in the Bible but Jesus Christ? And frankly we know that the Bible is not the final written revelation. Reba just gave us a written revelation that the original autographs were perfect! I may not believe Reba, but my faith is not in her. But perhaps at some point I could use her testimony to point another person to Jesus Christ, whom we know? And the same is true for the Holy Scriptures! My faith in not even in the author writers of the Bible, but in the One they wrote about. Of course if I believed what they wrote, I would have been seeking the Lord, and it is written that all those that seek find. And I found Him, They who wrote the Bible turned out to be right! Jesus Christ really does exist. He really is the word of God. He really does speak to me via the Holy Spirit who acts kind of like a telephone line, in that He speaks what He hears and not on His own initiative.

And so it is that faith comes from hearing the Lord. I don't yet believe the original autographs are perfect, because the Lord and I have not talked about that. But I do believe in Jesus Christ because we talk and I listen.
 
"Is the Bible given to us by God?"
Who else?
Barns & Noble?

Yeah, God had to be behind it, but Jesus who is God the son said:

"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words? (Jn 5:46,47)

So if you believe what Moses wrote, then you would believe that Jesus says. Thus Moses's writing are not what Jesus says or that verse is wrong. God inspired Moses to write and may even have told him what to write, but the writings of Moses are still the writings of Moses, according to Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is God.

I believe God is perfect, but as for Moses: I think He was someone that heard the Lord and tried to do what the Lord told him. So he, Moses, wrote down what he did as a matter of faith, but Moses does not have to be perfect. So what he wrote does not have to be perfect. It is enough that he heard from the Lord and tried to tell us about that!
 
But the point was that even if it was not punctuation perfect when people like Moses wrote it, (and how do you know that is was if we don't actually have that copy) it is not important! The important thing is that we can know the Lord!!

So if you believe what Moses wrote, then you would believe that Jesus says. Thus Moses's writing are not what Jesus says or that verse is wrong. God inspired Moses to write and may even have told him what to write, but the writings of Moses are still the writings of Moses, according to Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is God.

I believe God is perfect, but as for Moses: I think He was someone that heard the Lord and tried to do what the Lord told him. So he, Moses, wrote down what he did as a matter of faith, but Moses does not have to be perfect. So what he wrote does not have to be perfect. It is enough that he heard from the Lord and tried to tell us about that!
I don't think you have thought through your position well enough.

Basically, you're arguing that we can know Jesus but that the very Bible we have is essentially the work of men and that what they wrote could be wrong (it will often be wrong if it just the work of men). That means that what they wrote about Jesus could be wrong. Therefore, we can't know Jesus since we can't be sure who he is or if he even existed. Even if we can be certain from history that he did exist, we can't know if we can know him.

Only if the Bible is inspired in its entirety, that the words written down are what God wanted written down, that the message is what God wanted given, can we then believe that it is the revelation of God to man and, therefore, fully trustworthy in all that it says. Only then can we know who Jesus is and, therefore, know him.
 
I don't think you have thought through your position well enough.

Basically, you're arguing that we can know Jesus but that the very Bible we have is essentially the work of men and that what they wrote could be wrong (it will often be wrong if it just the work of men). That means that what they wrote about Jesus could be wrong. Therefore, we can't know Jesus since we can't be sure who he is or if he even existed. Even if we can be certain from history that he did exist, we can't know if we can know him.

Only if the Bible is inspired in its entirety, that the words written down are what God wanted written down, that the message is what God wanted given, can we then believe that it is the revelation of God to man and, therefore, fully trustworthy in all that it says. Only then can we know who Jesus is and, therefore, know him.

No -- I don't think you quite understand my position.

God certainly inspired men to write the Bible. And since God created all men, He surely knew what was going to be written. He could also certain, because He is God, had gotten the writings He wanted!! He could have made each and every word written perfectly according to His plan.

But did God make robots or even want or need to??

You see, the message in the Bible is that we need to listen to God - each of us personally!! "Hear, O Israel" is the foremost command in the Bible!! It is hearing God by which you learn to love God!

So if I written "Hear O Isreal" and thus get the punctuation and spelling wrong, is that important, or does it take away from the message or importance of the message. I can get things wrong, and it does not mean God got things wrong!!

Now He could certainly correct me, but He might even have a reason for not. He might also want to show that He, being God, can use what is not perfect (men) to accomplish His perfect plan. That would making Him greater. And if someone was more concerned about whether the message was written correct than following the message, then it would tell a lot about them, won't it? It would say they are more concerned about judging others that following God! So God could use it to separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak.

My purpose is to get people to listen to the Lord and follow Him, which is the same as the Father's who said, "This is My Son with whom I am well-pleased, Listen to Him." Yet some people seem to have come up with the purpose of leading people to the Bible and having it as the Word of God, meaning we have to follow a perfect Bible instead of a perfect God.

There was a reason that the Jews when Jesus came were searching the Scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life instead of seeking the Lord, and part of that was the teaching of the Religious leaders of the time. (See Jn 5:39)

And today, even on this forum, there is a question put forth by our Religious leaders about whether we believe the Bible is perfect and are we seeking it daily. Do they not still understand that while we should study the Bible the Bible is instructing us to seek the voice of the Lord and that He along is righteous by act! All men have sinned. And Abraham was counted as righteous because he believed, so it was not that he did everything right. And Jesus called the books of Moses "the writings of Moses" not the writings of God! But if we did actually believe them we would believe in His words, thereby separating the words of the Christ from the words of Moses!

Still, they searched the Scriptures, even after He told them, and they put Him (the Word of God) to death hanging Him on pieces of wood with "King of the Jews" written on them! Are we too trying to hang the Word of God on pieces of wood with ink saying "King of the Jews" on them instead of seeking His voice? And if we don't listen to someone who is always with us for advice, counsel, and teachings, have we not spiritually speaking 'Put Him to death again"?

We don't have to have a perfect Bible. It is enough that we have the message, even the same message the Father said about Jesus Christ. He is His Son with whom He is well-pleased; Listen to Him! We need to do that, but do we believe the writings of Moses, or are we just trying to say we follow the writings when the writings say to seek and listen to the voice of the Lord?

It seems to me that often our concern is all wrong. We are concerned about the perfection of the Bible instead of knowing the Lord who counts us righteous because we listen to Him!! --- If you truly understand that you understand my position. I want people concerned about seeking the voice of the Lord and listening to Him, just like is written in the Bible. The Bible can be perfect of not, what do I care. I am not following the Bible but the Lord, like the Bible explains.

Of course the Lord tells me to read the Bible. Those were His first words to me, but the perfection of the Bible has never been a question in our conversations. But He told me, "Karl, I want you to preach the Word of God, but not like it is so often preached today. I want you to preach I AM the word of God." And those words "I AM" hit me with such power I had to catch myself before I hit the bathroom floor. The great I AM, is the word of God we are supposed to be preaching. But He is so often not the Word of God preached today, just like He told me and opposite of what men like John and Moses taught. The Religious leaders are still acting the same way, and they still are not doing what the Father said!
 
We're told the bible was inspired by God.
Yes - is was inspired by God!!

If God inspires you to write something, even specifically telling you to writing something, and then you go and write it, could you make a mistake?

Have you never seen the someone make a line of people and tell a story to the first person then have each person tell it to the next person and see how it comes out at the end? People make mistakes. God of course can correct them, but He did not make robots, He made people. The message in the Bible would need to be clear, but the Bible does not have to be perfect. And so all Scriptures being inspired by God even God speaking and others writing as in God breathed ( which happens as we speak or God speaks in a spiritual sense) does not mean the Bible has to be perfect.

And someone might note that God watches over His Word, but does that mean His Son who said His sheep hear His voice, of does that mean the Scriptures? I'm sure God makes sure the Scriptures are good enough, but how many different translations do we have today, with a little different words in them. Which one is perfect. Perhaps all have some use, and God knows it?

We don't need the perfect Bible, we need the perfect Teacher! And we have Him! He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood and His name is called "The Word of God". And He is not the Bible but the One the Bible tells us about. So is your big concern about knowing Him as the Teacher and your Lord, or about knowing the Bible? Are you trying to follow the Bible or are you trying to follow Him? He said His sheep know His voice and He leads them out with His voice! So it is His voice, not His book that He inspired, by which He leads us, or did we not read that?


Jn 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Jn 8:47 He who is of God hears the words of God,...

Jn 10:3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Jn 10: My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

None of that says "read"! Not that we shouldn't read and study the Scriptures, but how do we say we do that and not understand it is not about reading the Scriptures but about hearing the words the Lord speaks to us? So John did not have to write it perfectly, but we need to listen to the Lord. That is clear!
 
Even if what he wrote was not "perfect", it is the best we've got to work with.

Better than that: It accomplishes His purpose!!

While I am saying that the Bible does not have to be perfect, it does have to be good enough to accomplish His purpose! He regularly reminds me the He is God of the whole earth, the whole Heavens, the whole everything. The Word of God (Jesus Christ) is alive and active and He holds all things together with His hands.

That being said; He has a purpose and He is going to accomplish that purpose. And the Scriptures are Holy, in that He uses them to accomplish His purpose! So they have to be good enough for that or He, being God of the whole everything, would have had them changed already. So we do need to study them, as a text book the Teacher wants us to read and study.

However, we are not zealous for the book instead of Him are we?

Paul wrote about the other Jews (Paul too was Jewish) Rm 10:2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

Now they certainly knew the Scriptures and were their zeal showed up in their personal efforts to follow the Scriptures and the traditions of the day. But they did not know the Lord! They didn't talk to Him so as to hear from Him by faith, like was explained in those Scriptures. And if that happened then, is it not happening today?

So I see Christians get zealous for the Scriptures as opposed to Him. They put other Christians to the test "Do you believe the Scriptures are the inerrant Word of God?" They ask. Do they not see that is a sign they are zealous for the Scriptures instead of Jesus Christ???

If the were indeed zealous for Jesus Christ their question would be "Do you believe Jesus Christ is the inerrant Word of God?" And that question would match up with the very Scriptures they have put their faith in. Do you not see that?

The purpose of God is that all would come to know and believe in His Son! Yet some have made it about all coming to know the Scriptures! Why has that happen? Who or what are they zealous for?

Oh - PS - It is not the Scriptures that are the best we have to work with! Jesus Christ is the best we have to work with!!!
 
No -- I don't think you quite understand my position.
You might be the only one that does. You seem to hold to conflicting ideas. Your position as a whole doesn't really make sense nor take into account nearly enough of what the Bible says.

You see, the message in the Bible is that we need to listen to God - each of us personally!! "Hear, O Israel" is the foremost command in the Bible!! It is hearing God by which you learn to love God!
While that is a part of the message, we "hear" God speak to us through the Holy Spirit when we read the Bible.

My purpose is to get people to listen to the Lord and follow Him, which is the same as the Father's who said, "This is My Son with whom I am well-pleased, Listen to Him."
Which was spoken to certain people at a certain time and place.

Yet some people seem to have come up with the purpose of leading people to the Bible and having it as the Word of God, meaning we have to follow a perfect Bible instead of a perfect God.
We know about God and therefore come to know God through his revelation of himself in the Bible. That is rather the point.

And Jesus called the books of Moses "the writings of Moses" not the writings of God! But if we did actually believe them we would believe in His words, thereby separating the words of the Christ from the words of Moses!
And yet, since the Bible is inspired, the writings of Moses are the words of Jesus, of God.

We don't have to have a perfect Bible.
What do you mean by "perfect"?

It is enough that we have the message, even the same message the Father said about Jesus Christ. He is His Son with whom He is well-pleased; Listen to Him! We need to do that, but do we believe the writings of Moses, or are we just trying to say we follow the writings when the writings say to seek and listen to the voice of the Lord?

It seems to me that often our concern is all wrong. We are concerned about the perfection of the Bible instead of knowing the Lord who counts us righteous because we listen to Him!! --- If you truly understand that you understand my position. I want people concerned about seeking the voice of the Lord and listening to Him, just like is written in the Bible. The Bible can be perfect of not, what do I care. I am not following the Bible but the Lord, like the Bible explains.
You are exceedingly selective in which verses you accept and apply. If you do not follow the Bible, you do not follow the Lord. To follow the Bible is to follow the Lord.
 
Back
Top